Here’s the story on the Loudoun County school budget at Leesburg Today. It’s “only” $794 million, a 15% increase in budget that will require a 14% increase in local funding share. Some cuts were made to Hatrick’s proposal, but obviously not enough. School Board member John Stevens seems to really be on a cost-cutting tear, but many of his cost cutting proposals were defeated. This is good news since he is a member of the LCDC, so maybe some of his fellow LCDC supervisors will take heed of his approach.Â
I can just see the cries of agony from Hatrick and administration if the Board of Supervisors fails to fully fund their request. Instead of opting to trim salary increases, of course they will panic parents by telling them how junior’s sports programs will be cut.
Speaking of parental involvement, the school board held a public input session for thoughts on the school system audit and NO ONE came. Of course they held it a week before Christmas at 5:30 in the afternoon, while most parents were probably still sitting in our horrendous traffic. Some limited thoughts are up at Living in LoCo. However. it defintely is not a strong sign to the School Board and LCPS administration if at least a few pissed off citizens can’t be bothered to show up.  I can hear them now – hey, we tried to get public comment but no one came, so I guess we must be doing a great job – no complaints at all!Â
Pathetic! We’re all screwed.
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Jan 11th by Loudoun Insider
How about letting the PARENTS fund the shortfall. I’ve given WAY past the point of hurting. 75% of the total budget for schools is my limit. Revolt anyone?
Mark Kay
on January 11th, 2008Well at least some school systems live in reality.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/10/AR2008011003530.html
Lee j
on January 11th, 2008http://sungazette.net/articles/2008/01/11/middleburg_life/schools_and_education/mb263.txt
This site has some interesting comparisons between all the local school districts except dc schools
Lee j
on January 12th, 2008All you RINOs elected these clowns, and now you’re surprised? You made your bed, sleep in it!
BLACK/DELGAUDIO FAN
on January 12th, 2008BDF, do you ever get tired of looking like a knucklehead?
edmundburkenator
on January 12th, 2008What Edmundburkenator said!
Mark Kay
on January 13th, 2008My comments on the school budget. (Disclaimer: I have 3 children in LCPS so I have a vested interest. My ideology is that government should finance education and establishing standards and testing but not operate schools. That is best left to the private sector and parental choice.)
We can get sizable savings from LCPS by reducing the teacher salaries and increasing the classroom size. Fairfax has just done this and LCPS based its budget increases on projecting past Fairfax increases and didn’t adjust downward when Fairfax announced its budget would not be as rich as previous years. If Loudoun has a better school system than its neighbors how will we keep growth down?
I also think parent user fees should be used to fund all non-academic programs such as athletics and music. I differ with Fairfax on fees for AP because I would require all students to take the AP exam because it is an independent quality measurement.
I prefer that budget savings come from a reduction in school construction rather than curriculum changes. That means more efficient use of our schools. Here are concrete suggestions:
1) Three kindergartens classes per classroom rather than 2 per day.
2) Year around school: Divide a 240 day school year into sixteen 15-day educational segments. (52*5 = 260 days so there are 20 days in this schedule for holidays.) Stagger start times so that students have 15 days recess after each quarter thus attending school 180 of the 240 day schedule. The facilities would be divided into 3 wings with the classrooms to support say 100 students. (LCPS already does this in middle school and calls them houses.) A school could support four 100 student teams in a 3-wing school. Each house would host a different team each quarter to maximize use of the facilities while one of the teams is on recess.
Repeat this for each grade in a building.
This approach would allow 400 students to be educated in the space currently used to educate 300 students for a 33% capacity improvement. Middle schools currently supporting 900 students could serve 1200 students with no infrastructure changes except perhaps adding 300 more lockers.
3) Longer Days: Add an additional block to the middle and high school day. This means starting at 8:00 am instead of 9:00 and running until 4:30 instead of 4:00pm. Students would not take any more classes. Instead they would use the extra period for sports or resource or other non-classroom activities. The cafeteria and auditorium would hold the excess students and allowing students to come late or leave early if they had a free period would reduce the number of students in the building at one time. (The current zero period is a half-step towards this solution.) Buses would transport both elementary and high school students at the same time so there would be fewer miles driven in rural areas although more buses would be needed. Having classrooms used for 5 instead of 4 periods per day would increase a school’s classroom capacity by 25%.
4) Online courses: Provide correspondence and online courses as replacements for small classes that don’t use class space efficiently.
5) Weekend School: Provide double block classes on Saturday and Sunday. Providing four 3- hour courses on week-end days is a 33% increase in instructional time. A particular student would likely take only one of the 4 courses but each seat filled during the weekend is a classroom seat for an additional student during the week.
6) Allow specialized charter schools/home schools and part-time enrollment. Middle and high schools are on a two-day cycle. Students take some classes on “A†days and the others on “B†days. Students should be encouraged to get their graduation required courses done on one of those days and then sign up for off campus enrichment courses run by private companies. Suggestions include fine arts, computer programming, sports training or (if old enough) work. This is even easier to implement when done with longer school day (See #3, 4 & 5 above.)
None of these are novel ideas as they have been implemented around the country. Implementing one or more of these ideas could dramatically reduce the pressure on an overcrowded school.
If people think that these changes makes a school less desirable (I don’t) then implement them in the fastest growing neighborhoods to reduce demand and as a negotiating technique in getting developer’s proffers of school infrastructure in exchange for maximizing home sales.
Schools need to be good stewards of taxpayer resources and the current underutilization of LCPS buildings is one place to reduce not only construction and debt services costs (by keeping our AAA rating) but also operating costs per student.
Ed Myers
on January 13th, 2008Good ideas, Ed, I’m sure all of them would not be implemented but even a few could produce significant savings – which is exactly what the county needs at this critical time.
Loudoun Insider
on January 13th, 2008Let’s advertise on school buses.
Elise
on January 13th, 2008The sum total of changes to the Superintendent’s budget by the School Board was actually only $5,721. This is not a typo. “”"” quoted from John Stevens, Blog http://blog.loudounschools.org/
Of course he goes on to say this is a good and appropriate budget. And we should not be critical until we studied all the facts.
Here is one fact the residents of this county can’t afford you and the school boards decisions as well as the top administrators from Hatrick.
The salary for the top dog in this administration should be not more the the average salary in Loudoun. That is the first cut that needs to be made. We have an extremely high paid elitist running our school systems and they need to live on a salary of the average resident not the highest paid.
But as far as the budget this county can not afford this budget especially when we could be on the verge of a full blown recesion and a third of the homes listed lately are in foreclosure, or some kind of distressed sale. And let me tell it is going to get much worse.
hmmmmmmmmmm
Lee j
Lee j
on January 13th, 2008What Edmund and Mr. Kay said!!!
BDF (and I’m getting even more creative with those initials) Delguadio and the others did EXACTLY thae same thing, dumbarse. You act as if this is somehow different. It’s not a partisan argument. You continue to embarass yourself with every post.
10 feet tall and Bulletproof
on January 13th, 2008I read in a Leesburg Today article that they expect 3,000 new students this year and are hiring 800 new teachers. That works out to slightly below four students per teacher. What’s the deal there?
Loudoun Insider
on January 13th, 2008LI,
Email John Stevens and get an answer to that question. I would like to know his answer.
Ed Myers,
While some of your ideas may very well be good ones, pretty much none of them have a chance of being implemented in Loudoun County in my lifetime. If you want to use our schools better, a simple policy change of dropping the 90% “schedule” factor in the CIP would IMMEDIATELY increase capacity by 10% across the board. Really that is all it would take to maintain our AAA bond rating (something I really think is at no risk in any case).
The impact to the operating budget by capital expenditures is minor. Teacher salaries, class size would indeed be the place to start with the Operating Budget but it will be politcally impossible to drastically cut these costs.
As you know, Ed, there are many hidden costs in the OB. It takes work to get them identified and removed. Given that the budget is past the school board already, this year that ship as sailed. The BOS has no ability to target specific items on the OB, they can just say “we will give you $XXXXX to fund the budget.” Get ready for Hatrick’s hand-wringing. Prediction (not too tough to make at this point): BOS will make about a 15% cut. Hatick will say, “We can only make cuts like these by reducing teacher’s salaries, increasing class size, and cutting sports programs (likely lacrosse).” Fast forward through all the angry PTA moms speaking to the BOS and Hatrick “finding” a chunk of savings and we will end up with a 10% cut and no major cuts in teacher’s salaries or increase in class size or cuts to sports.
Eric the 1/2 troll
on January 14th, 2008Erics right. We’ve been there so many times before. The school board has no incentive to be out front on budget cuts. They’ll wait until they get a BOS number and then reevaluate all the suggested cuts when the BOS reduceds the funding level. It’s basic political posturing.
Of course the budget always has fluff because the School System has the incentive to reach beyond needs just in case there is extra money and it never hurts them to play the underfunded victim. Bazaar negotiation 101 — never make the opening bid your final price.
I could take the $13K LCPS spends on one of my children and buy two seats at a private school. (A two for one sale.) But for some reason the majority doesn’t trust parents to make good educational choices for their children. With mandatory testing we could at least document whether children are thriving and yank them back into public schools if they fail the SOLS.
I suspect both the left and right have so much ideology indoctrination targeted at children through the public school curriculum (DARE, sex education/orientation, guidance, patriotism, mentioning God, etc.) that they don’t want to give it up. I just wish they realized if I were making the purchase decisions my children would meet testing benchmarks at a cost 50% lower than what the taxpayers are currently spending by funding their education through the LCPS system. But since the schools are free and I have to pay taxes whether I send my kids to public school or not I have no incentive to make schools more efficient either.
Ed Myers
on January 14th, 2008Eric is correct. Ed Myers, education is not a factory-analog system. We want the best education our money can buy. The BOS decides what that money amount is when it sets the budget. If we don’t like what Mr. Hatrick is doing with the money he gets we should get rid of him. If we want the BOS to give him less money, we should lobby them.
I personally know a kid in a Fairfax gifted program with 35 kids in the class, and the class size may rise even more next year. Does anyone really think that in that setting anyone is getting an education suited to a gifted kid? Fairfax is riding on its previous reputation, established when its taxes were sky-high, and these days it is not all it is cracked up to be; I hate to see us emulating them.
As for getting a year at a private school for $6K, I doubt it. Most local private schools are much more, especially at the high school level. Besides, well-run private schools can’t just be “inflated” ad infinitum to accept tens of thousands more kids. That’s the fallacy of vouchers.
And home schooling is only cheap because parents are unpaid as teachers.
Elder Berry
on January 14th, 2008I paid for a full day kindergarten at a private school for less than $6K per year for each of my children. They all read at a 3rd grade level when they entered public school so I thought it was a much better deal than public schools and taxpayers got a free ride.
There are a few poor teachers in even good systems. Likewise there are lowsy private schools but market forces are quicker than political forces to weed them out. Is it fair to your gifted student that he should wait 4 years for a new administration before changes are made to fix the educational system problem? If parents had other options we could see the feet voting without waiting for the ballot box.
Ed Myers
on January 14th, 2008Since no one thought about this enough to challenge my assumptions I’ll do it myself!
OTOH: Public schools have economies of scale. I paid twice as much for lunch at the private school as I do now and I had to provide my own transportation which is more expensive, less safer, more polluting, and causes more congestion than school buses.
Ed Myers
on January 14th, 2008I suggest we look past the partisan divide of socialized education versus vouchers and consider a completely different market-based approach.
Create edu-dollar accounts for every student. Each student would receive the base amount (probably around $5K) each year from the county and some students would receive additional credits from the state and feds for special education, ESL, low income, etc.
Then fix a price for each component of education and let each student/parent pick off the ala-carte menu. Individual teachers would set class size and publish their teaching style. An experienced teacher with a good reputation might accept a class of 30 and charge $4K per student/year. A new teacher might set a class size of 15 and charge $3K. Parents that wanted a choice would pick the class that suited them. Principals would make the decision (as they do now) for those who did care. Teachers that didn’t get enough subscribers would have to leave and the good ones would get a bonus because they were good and worked hard and not because they had been with the school for 20 years.
Some parents are selfish and very competitive. They want the best teachers plus all the extras just for their children. (Think lacrosse, Mandarin, 15 AP courses, etc.) Other children are less costly to educate because their parents are easier to please. By setting a dollar limit children/parents would have to prioritize their educational demands so that there was more equity in expenditures per student. (This is particularily true of special education where some parents demand that a free and appropriate education requires expenditures of $100K per year for their special child.)
If students are good in a subject they might take the low-cost newbie teacher to save money so they could afford to buy the best teacher in a subject that is more difficult for them. If there is money left over students could buy a slot on a sports team, or music lessons or pay for AP test.
This market approach democratizes budget decisions. It is what we do every day at the supermarket and it gives us a wealth of choices. Government inspects products to make sure they are safe and labeled properly (i.e. teacher certification and SOL testing) but then usually gets out of the way and lets us decide what purchase is best to maximize our happiness.
We should explore this model for public education, too.
Ed Myers
on January 14th, 2008LI(12), there’s a lot to this issue but if this is going to get solved I think it’s important to work with strong accurate numbers and the conclusions we draw from them that reflect reality. The following observation should help correct the mistakes made in the local article and answer portions of your question.
For clarity, It’s the number of NET new teachers that have to be hired – teachers retire, teachers move, and some are not renewed; and of course some are required because of growth requirements and new schools; plus many of these teachers are SPECIALISTS such as Special Education teachers who do not have a 20:1 ratio. The Special Ed requirements are dictated to us by law, a majority of which are federal. Loudoun can’t influence that requirement.
BlackOut
on January 14th, 2008No matter the subject, BlackOut still presents himself/herself with much clarity of thought and reasoning.
Jose Kinusee
on January 15th, 2008ed Myers #7
Now you are on to something. Some good stuff!
The educrats will fight you until their death, but maybe that is what needs to happen in order to insert some reform.
G. Stone
on January 15th, 2008That’s a reasonable request, BlackOut, I simply don’t have the time to run down the actual breakdown. Something tells me there’s still plenty of excess in this proposed budget.
Loudoun Insider
on January 15th, 2008I downloaded all 499 pages. It is a daunting task to move through the budget document — especially when you have a life.
My hope now is to understand it enough that by 2009’s request I can make a reasoned argument for or against. Eric has said the boat has sailed on this one…
I will say I’m steamed at myself for letting this get this far with noticing. The elections, timing, and notice of the meeting all left me looking the other way.
edmundburkenator
on January 16th, 2008But that’s because you are an engaged individual, Edmund. Others let football games and soccer practice replace this vital work that affects all of us. I’m very impressed that you’re doing it at this late date, because I think after one is familiar with the outline of the documents this year, they ought to be a whizz in going right to the meat in the 2009 -2010 document. Rock on, man.
10 feet tall and Bulletproof
on January 16th, 2008Eric is wrong about the ship having sailed. The BOS is just beginning to approve the funding request and although they can’t change the budget (dictate line items) they can change the allocation irrespective of the budget request. The school board will then have to reconcile the budget to the BOS allocation. Both of those processes allow for community input. The community input focus right now should be directed at the BOS.
Ed Myers
on January 16th, 2008I agree with Ed on the forward goind process but it is NOW a politcal game not a budget hawk issue. Nothing will be changed policywise that could mean real savings in the OB. I stand behind my 10% overall reduction prediction at the end of the day. You may be able to eke that up to 11 or 12% by squaking real loudly but that is aboout it and we will still see double digit increases in our taxes.
Edmund, regarding the budget cycle, a push for a 2 year operating budget from the school would give us more time to examine the issues in detail before they have to be approved by the SB. That would be a SIMPLE policy change (as opposed to Ed’s sweeping changes) that could ultimately mean real saving to us taxpayers. Hatrick will fight it but we have beaten him before. This is why the vote for school board member is so important – perhaps more important (taxwise) and BOS member).
Eric the 1/2 troll
on January 16th, 2008At first blush, I like the 2-year budget idea. Help me understand what the counter arguments would be. Forecasting prices?
edmundburkenator
on January 16th, 2008Frankly, I can’t see a VALID counterargument. Heck, we do 5-year budgets for the CIP side. I think he will say it is too hard to plan for two years in a growth area and the second year will not be accurate but that is really lame. I am sure Hatrick will fear the two year cycle and will circle the wagons with his supporters on the School Board. But squack loud enough and with a single voice (add a little behind the scenes lobbying to build a coalition of five on the board) and it could be done.
These sorts of policy changes take the efforts of a small steering group to coordinate the show. These few need to be dedicated and of a single mind so it is best to focus the mission on small achievable goals and then go at it like a Jack Russell to a shoe.
Eric the 1/2 troll
on January 17th, 2008Eric, have you heard of any such steering group being formed? I would support and participate.
edmundburkenator
on January 17th, 2008I will be more than happy to discuss the Loudoun County School Board’s adopted budget — all 400 pages of it — with anyone who cares to call me. The home phone number is 703 437-9428.
J. Warren Geurin
Sterling District
Loudoun County School Board
J. Warren Geurin
on January 17th, 2008edmund,
Grassroots, buddy, it would be up to us to do it.
Gotta say this about Warren, he is not of the same ilk as the rest on the SB. He will not blindly follow Hatrick. There is a reason he has been reelected so many time to the Sterling seat (might have something to do with being the only person willing to take the job)
)
Eric the 1/2 troll
on January 18th, 2008You have to respect a public official who actually cares about what people think and is willing to post his phone number. Way to go Warren – now trim some more fat out of that budget! We know it’s in there!
Loudoun Insider
on January 18th, 2008Warren, I’m calling you next week when I get out of the weeds here at work. Thanks for chiming in…
Eric, can I buy you a coffee next week and discuss a strategy to get a 2-year plan in front of the BOS?
edmundburkenator
on January 18th, 2008Warren,
I’ve delayed calling you as well.. As has been offered, I’m knee deep in making up time afforded for that election cycle.
I’m rewarded by two opinion pieces in the papers….
Thaddeus Henry Hale Jr. thinks: “The group we now have , along with Scott York, should more aptly be called the Voters for Loudouns Future majority, because Miller, McGimsey and Buckley are suspect as Democrats”
And just yesterday, ‘ol Smokey Ellis piped in:
“It is also no suprise that with King York and his Democratic royal court back on the throne….”
This means that both “radical” sides in the county are put out that the people won out, and that their best interest will be served, despite the lunatic fringe(s).
10 feet tall and Bulletproof
on January 19th, 2008