There have been several high profile assaults and robberies in the last few months, and the Lansdowne murder and attempted murder of a jogging couple has raised fear levels to a new high. The Lansdowne incident has generated comment levels not seen for some time at Loudoun Times Mirror and WaPo Loudoun Extra. Now there appears to be another suspicious death in Leesburg as reported by the Loudoun Times Mirror.
Is this a new trend for Loudoun County? There is certainly some correlation between this uptick in crime and the downturn of the economy. The comment threads linked to above have plenty of theories on this horrific crime, some linked to illegal immigrants, some to a group of teens selling door to door in the neighborhood, and some to the slain man’s former job as a CIA contractor.
While some of the commenters have jumped to conclusions about the illegal immigrant angle, there is no doubt that a number of high profile crimes in northern Virginia have been committed by illegal immigrants. As construction jobs disappear, it isn’t surprising that some of these illegals would turn to crime to make ends meet. This isn’t racist or xenophobic, it’s cold hard fact that is obvious if you regularly follow the news. Sorry if it is discomforting to some to hear it, but it is what it is.
Everyone should remain vigilant and look out for others, especially those who aren’t as able to protect themselves.
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Mar 26th by Loudoun Insider
I have begun to carry my weapon with me when I’m out at night on the road. I’ve armed my wife as well. I may regret that some day…she’s everybit as good as I am with her sidearm.
This is big progress for her. She’s originally from Tax-a-chu-setts, and has never owned one before.
Good for you, Monk and Mrs. More people should do the same – to hell with the lib gun control fanatics having a fit about it. Some of the commenters on other sites tried the old “well if he had a gun it’s more likely it would have been used against him”. That is such baloney.
I assume the victim wasn’t carrying while jogging. I also read that he was a retired Army Special Forces officer, and from the photo he looked to be pretty burly. I imagine he landed a few good blows himself unless he was totally blindsided. I hope his poor wife makes it through – not only for her life’s sake, but also so that she can hopefully help bring these cretins to justice.
I’m glad people have the right to arm themselves, but it only helps if you have a chance.
Many people — most people — never have that chance when evil visits.
I carried to a meeting last night. I think that will be my habit in the forseeable future. And I know how to use it. It’s better than no chance at all, edmundburkenator.
In an unfortunate situation that ultimately requires lethal force… the firearm is right there on the scene.
The police and the 911 operator are a good ten minute minimum.
As Ron White says in response to a query about how far a plane can fly with one engine:
“All the way to the scene of the crash. Hell, I bet we beat the paramedics by a half hour”.
I’m not arguing constitutionality or anything, but isn’t that a bit of an overreaction? Unless you are going to your meeting on foot, exactly what you are afraid of? You had a couple out jogging totally exposed in the middle of the night get attacked. As far as I know, there haven’t been any carjackings. The other incident has absolutely no information available. The police treat EVERY death as a suspicious death when they arrive on a scene like that, it could mean anything.
Lets not get hysterical here. Overreacting is just going to make things worse and could result in somebody getting hurt needlessly.
Nova… You a boyscout?
Be Prepared, son. Do not initiate it, by any means…but in the worst scenario come to pass…Be Prepared.
You’ve never seen the ‘ol broken down vehicle trick on a far flung roadway?
I’ll always stop and render aid…but I’ll always keep them in front of me and I’ll have knockdown power in case something goes screwy.
And I was specifically trained to be paranoid. Your perceptions may vary.
Here’s where things get jiggy:
BM isn’t as good or paranoid as he thinks he is and bad guy gets to use his (and heaven forbid his wife’s) weapon on me and my wife after finishing with BM.
Probable? No. From what I know of BM, I would not bet on the bad guy. But…
I’m rooting for you BM, for more reasons than one.
Well I have nothing against citizens protecting themselves, but I’m not of the opinion that introducing a gun into everyday life is a smart decision for a variety of reasons.
Beyond that, I just don’t think we need to incite some kind of panic amongst the citizens of Loudoun county based on no more than a handful of incidents, which may be totally isolated and unrelated.
How many people live in Loudoun now? What is the murder rate at this point? These things are bound to happen from time to time. It’s a horrible crime, but they do occur. No reason to go nuts over it and start arming or anything.
I’m always well armed – it’s a prudent precaution to take. Remember, simply brandishing a weapon deters much more crime than firing one. There is certainly no need for panic, but this has probably opened up many people’s eyes. I just saw a report on the evening news about the Lansdowne community meeting about this – over 1,000 in attendance.
I’m willing to bet that needlessly carrying a weapon around ends up causing more trouble than it solves.
Specific tasks at specific times are one thing. All the time for no reason is another.
Then how else will you be prepared for the unexpected? It’s not a problem if you’re properly trained and aware.
A weapon is just a tool. The only time it becomes a problem is when it is in the hands of someone who isn’t mature enough to handle the responsibility.
The same can be said of power tools, automobiles, alcohol, large dogs, baseball bats, knives, and most home appliances.
This doesn’t sound like a one off kind of event, either. I would err on the side of caution as well.
[...] buddy LI is a very, very sensible man. (Be sure to read the [...]
Thank goodness law abiding citizens are allowed to be armed in this state. We should all be making use of that tinch of possible advantage we have over the criminals.
Moving to the boonies I thought I would have no use for my CCP. Now I am thinking I need to carry openly. That does seem to deter some people when you have a gun visible. Plus it’s fun to freak out the liberals.
i live in lunenburg co. while our crime rate doesn’t equal that of No. VA. (substantially less people), we have high drug rate, so i expect the other crime rate to escalate soon.
OK, I’m hearing all this talk about the need to “pack heat,” “open carry,” etc. I didn’t grow up in this country and I’m very naive when it comes to firearms so please educate me.
As a woman, where would I “open” carry a handgun? For it to be effective, I would think it would only make sense to have it on my person at all times. So, do I put it in my purse (which could be snatched), on my belt along with my cell phone and pedometer, strapped to my ankle like a cop? Plus, carrying it in open view may just be an invitation to criminals to take it from me.
My spouse is making rumblings about getting a weapon as protection against robbers, terrorists, etc. When I asked where he intends to keep it, he couldn’t say.
Are we coming to a point where everyone is carrying a handgun ala the Wild West?
And how is a gun going to protect the owner against an attack from the rear in the dark??
BTW, the couple who were attacked in Lansdowne were not even carrying ID so why would they carry a handgun.
Open carry must be open, LM. In the purse or hidden in an ankle holster would be concealed and require a permit, which is relatively easy to obtain (thankfully) in Virginia. I urge you to read up and take some courses in self defense before you make a purchase. Contact the NRA for more information. Carrying a weapon requires a heightened sense of vigilance that will serve you well. As far as the home goes, nothing beats a nice pump shotgun in my opinion. I keep my Bennelli M-3 with a full magazine and no round in the chamber. The racking of a pump shotgun action to put a round in the chamber is a universally known and fear inducing sound. Again, simply letting an intruder or potential intruder know you’re armed and ready will cause most to head for the hills.
On the gang issue, there was disturbing news on the nightly news last night and in today’s paper about gang recruitment in a NoVA middle school. These dirtballs need to be universally hunted down and locked up. Once again Frank Wolf has been leading the charge on combatting gangs in the region. He’s seen this coming for a long time and has been ahead of the curve, but the gangs seem to be proliferating anyway. More focus on this scourge is needed.
Hey I am from Texas where the women shoot their spouses and boyfriends all the time when caught cheating
Including one of my best friends a long time ago, but she missed all the vital organs and they stayed married another 20 years, then he remarried and got ran over by a garbage truck while riding his motorcycle. Which did quite a job on him and put him in the hospital for 6 months. I still wonder if the second wife did not hire the garbage man to finish him off. Well now they got millions from this and I wonder if his second wife still has plans for him as she keeps a gun in her purse. He is also a marine special forces from the Viet Nam era.
Anyway the moral of this story is your wife or girl friend or husband or boy friend is more dangerous then the stranger lurking on the streets in the dark. I believe most of the few murders in Loudoun have been domestic. Remember the indian that hacked up his wife and left the pieces in a garbage dumpster and how about the US marshal that shot his wife and left her dead in the house for a few days while he stayed drunk in the same home before he called the police. Murders in Loudoun seem to be a step up from the everyday kind of murders you see in the papers. I do believe most murders in Loudoun have been domestic or they knew each other. As far as packing, have at it just don’t drink and shoot or shoot anyone in the back.
I’m with LI and BPM on arming yourself. It is not an overreaction and I suggest everyone take advantage of this right. If you think the mere possession of a gun, or the legal carrying of one escalates violence, you have a lot to learn.
I’ve read a lot of ramblings about the horrible Landsdowne murders, had a friend tell me she was scared there were so many “unsolved murders” in LC. Yes, there is a gang problem. However, there is no evidence right now that points to this muder as a gang initiation, despite the piece by the reporter at the Richmond Dispatch (I think). I’d like to research this, but I do not think per capita LC has a high murder rate, nor does Fairfax or PW County. Petty crime and assaults are increasing throughout the NoVa area and some of that has to do with the economy, some with gangs, this is a combination that is bad.
I’d like to connect the dots one more time on the county budget. Given the current trends, economy going south, gang crimes increasing (even if it is slight), the LSCO budget being slashed, lack of zoning enforcement and the mentality that the schools need to continue getting funding at an unsustainable rate – there will be more crime and less enforcement. We will have very nice schools with increasing crime. If you are comfortable with this combination I think you need your head examined.
I believe the final vote on the budget cuts is April 7. Contact your Supervisor today.
“I’m not of the opinion that introducing a gun into everyday life ”
What you fail to recognise is that they’re already introduced and infused in daily life. You have no idea how many firearms , legally concealed, that you’ve passed in your daily business in the county. That’s because issued and operated properly, the holders of those permits are seamless in their moving among us.
The reader who thinks this reintroduces the “wild west” couldn’t be further off the mark.
“An armed society is a polite society.”
Chew on that for a couple of minutes. If people realize your armed, they’re much less likely to demand your wallet or purse. There’s a 100% improvement in the odds that they will encounter hot lead in the exchange.
If they never approach you, on the other hand, then noone will ever know you even packed. As it should be.
And with all due respect LI…do not ever “brandish” a handgun for an upper hand. I was trained to pull mine, release the safety and fire all in one swooping motion. That is a last line of defense, and should never be taken lightly. But you need not wave it in front of an attacker for emphasis. Tell them you are armed and that you prefer not to have to use it. If this does not help, then I’m afraid the above described swoop may become necessary.
In all my years of carrying , I have only had to touch my weapon once. Even that time, the fellow figured out that he didn’t really want to press the issue…and departed.
I previously had a concealed permit when I was doing collections and repossession work in 1985, and they were much harder to secure back then. You had to have a demonstrated need to possess one. And then I bounced around DC for 5 years with two sidearms under my suits, because they refused to allow executive protection agents to apply as SPOs.
Interestingly, the one incident that required me to touch my weapon in preparation of a pull occurred one night after I was off shift and going home.
BPM, I did collections and ordered repossessions for a large car finance co in the early to mid 90’s – an overwhelming majority of the repo agents we used were CCP holders. They were a “scraggly” bunch, but they knew their stuff! The guys at the auto auctions were just as scraggly but they were all good folk and I miss working with them.
I agree on the “brandishing” synopsis as well, although I am not sure LI was advocating waving a gun around as a deterrant per se, at least I hope not. The point needs to be made though that people in public have no way of knowing who is and is not armed.
Why would you feel the need to carry a gun while jogging in Landsdowne? These seems to be an organized, intentional hit on this poor couple. God be with them.
Interesting about the repo work. I repoe’d Porsche and Renault (think Alpine here) and BMW cars for the Pantops Mountain Store…
Yes, some call me “scruffy”
“The point needs to be made though that people in public have no way of knowing who is and is not armed.”
Exactly…because that conveys a certain amount of protection to those who don’t “conceal a carry.” The bad guys just never know who among us might actually have heat and know how to use it…so they just don’t risk it with anybody….which is the violence-free alternative, anyway.
“These seems to be an organized, intentional hit on this poor couple”
RWN, as somewhat of an expert on these matters…
If this was organized or professional in some capacity to his contract work, they wouldn’t have bludgeoned him….
he’d have two silencer-induced points of entry into his chest (or back) and one entry into his skull.
It’s fast, it’s clean and does not even need to expose the shooter to any witness.
Beating a man to death is either rage or opportunity killing…and neither one of those is “organized” nor a “hit”.
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm
The other important thing to remember is that simply carrying isn’t enough. The weapon is not a magic talisman that will ward off evil simply by it’s presence. 90% of the game is being alert and paying attention. No one should be able to “sneak up on you from behind” if you’re alert and aware of your surroundings.
It always used to amaze me when I was in college the number of women who would walk around at night with headphones on. That always struck me as unnecessarily dangerous.
http://loudounextra.washingtonpost.com/blogs/living-loco/2009/mar/27/look-murder-loco-five-years-back/
Erica has done a interesting story about murder in Loudoun. As you can see most of the murders are domestic or they knew each other. People are going a bit overboard on this last murder and personally I don’t believe this last murder was random.
The reason this last murder has been so sensationalized is that murder is extremely rare in Loudoun and I guess people are so bored with their lives they need some excitement to talk about.
Didn’t Loudoun have a murder via sword a few years ago? Some goth kids killed a parent or something?
As far as the cause of this crime, my question is, who randomly beats a couple up at 5:30 AM on a cold late winter/early spring morning? That seems odd as hell. It may not be the TV-style hit that Monk describes, but if someone had a beef with the victims, then I could see it happening. Everyone is sleeping, it’s dark – if you know someone is going out walking or whatever, that’s a good time to wait with a baseball bat or whatever for them to walk by.
Gang initiation? Not likely at all.
Absolutely agreement with BPM on the bogus “professional hit” theory. There was nothing professional at all about this horrific crime.
As far as brandishing a weapon goes, I would always prefer that option when faced with someone intent on harm but with no weapon pulled of their own. Or in a burglary situation where I could defuse and send the cretin heading for the hills prior to messing up my hardwood floors. Of course if you are faced with an immediate situation by a perp with gun or other deadly weapon out and ready you obviously have no time for anything other than immediate action. The point is there are many crimes deterred through making a perp aware that he will have deadly consequences bestowed upon him if he proceeds further down a threatening path.
LI,
1) Have you ever shot someone
2) Have you ever successful brandished a weapon to chase someone off?
No to number one, yes to number two. It involved three hispanic males with limited English shooping around a house on a property I once lived on. It was a creepy situation and my Glock and MagLite sent them off in a hurry.
I also don’t like people coming to my house unannounced at odd hours and always greet them with gun in hand – sometimes letting them know I have it. I like to send the message that I don’t like uninvited guests on my property. Especially with some of the odd threats I’ve received. Call me paranoid if you want (my wife sometimes does!) but I’d much rather be safe than sorry. There has been an uptick in home invasion robberies lately, which often begin with a knock on the door and an innocent request.
As far as brandishing vs. shoot first, my example there would be a situation where I hear someone breaking into the first floor while I’m in bed (or hear the alarm go off). No one is sneaking up my creaky stairs if I’m alert and waiting for them. Do I wait for them to do so and have to take lethal action? Hell no – I rack the slide and tell them to get the F out. No way I want unneccessary carnage in my house if I can at all help it.
Another murder reported today in NE Leesburg…
“Well I have nothing against citizens protecting themselves, but I’m not of the opinion that introducing a gun into everyday life is a smart decision for a variety of reasons.”
All of those reasons have been proven to be baseless over and over and over again. The statistics are over whelming that the use of firearms thwart criminal acts millions of times yearly in America. In the vast majority of those incidents, the firearm is never discharged.
Do the math, you already come in contact with people virtually everyday of your life who are lawfully carrying concealed.
Those who are fearful in any way of firearms are not compelled to own or use them. Remain unarmed, that is your choice as a free person.
“BM isn’t as good or paranoid as he thinks he is and bad guy gets to use his (and heaven forbid his wife’s) weapon on me and my wife after finishing with BM.”
And your point is ?
Could this happen ? yes. However you are more likely to get hit by lighting while running from a lion who just escaped from the zoo.
Read John Lott’s Book, More Guns less Crime. Then get back with me if you think you or your wife are still in danger.
Guns and Gun control is one issue where emotion often trumps reason. It is certainly a subject where many people think with their hearts as opposed to their heads.
The Supreme Court lifts the DC gun ban, crime in DC goes down. Cause and effect. Any questions?
My point is “carrying” isn’t for everyone. It takes a real commitment to know what you are doing and even then bad guys can win and may become more dangerous with the weapon that you haplessly provided.
Guns are an emotional issue. Gun advocates use emotion to promote their causes and gun control advocates do the same.
Taking emotion out of it would be great. Try doing it.
I was at the meeting last night and commented as it is my habit to do.
The room was packed as this community is very concerned. Given the nature of the crime and the public out cry the Sheriffs dept is working double overtime trying to solve this case. The point was made and it is true, crime in Loudoun county overall is low. Loudoun in general is a safe place to live, with a few exceptions.
I have no inside knowledge of the case and believe as was stated last night that rumors are counter productive.
However, one can speculate as to the possible causes based on what has transpired in the area over these many months.
I have no idea who did this and hope it ends up being a random act by domestic grown dirtballs. If it ends up being gang or illegal migrant related that represents a bigger problem and greater cause for concern.
But lets review what transpired in Sterling park over the Summer of 2008. Crime of all sorts spiked during this period. on or about the same time ( late 2007 ) Legislative action in prince William County was causing an exodus of illegals into adjacent jurisdictions. Crime rates in the landing pads of choice went up. Montgomery, Fairfax and Loudoun counties received the majority of illegals leaving Prince William, seeking a friendlier environ. Those jurisdictions viewed as willing to accommodate the presence of illegals are paying the price for having done so.
Our Sherrifs Dept and Commonwealths atty Jim Plowman just concluded the conviction of one Mr Morales. Morales was an illegal alien who raped and beat a 71 year old woman in Sterling park at the height of last years crime spike. Atty Plowman did a terrific job of putting this dirt bag away for a long time. He made this case his personal mission and should be commended for his efforts.
There are two epicenters of gang and illegal alien activity in Loudoun County, Leesburg and Sterling Park. As those areas get more heavily populated with those who are up to no good, we will see continued expansion of criminal behavior in areas such as Lansdown and other communities. Expansion outward is on the rise. I use Sugarland Run as an example.
Kudos to Loudoun Lady for connecting the dots on this as it pertains to our current budget battle.
I was going to ask those in attendance last night at the meeting how many of the them concerned with and calling for enhanced Public Safety were also asking the BOS to fully fund LCPS. You can’t have it both ways. This tragic event further illustrates the importance of the proper allocation of tax revenue.
If this crime ends up having been perpetrated by illegal migrants, I would not want to be those members of the BOS who have spent the last two years pretending the problem does not exist.This group of Supervisors are more interested in dithering around the edges and blaming those of us on the other side of the issue as racists, all in order to placate a very narrow band of liberal supporters. Supervisor Miller leads this group and now wants to be the Delegate representing both Herndon and Sterling Park, two jurisdictions fighting a problem that he himself believes does not exist. Mr. Miller believes the presence of Illegals in Sterling park is a manufactured issue. He could not more clueless on this issue if he tried.
I for one want to thank Supv Delgaudio as well as Del Rust for having the intellectual honesty to admit we have a problem with illegal migrants in Herndon and Eastern Loudoun County.
“My point is “carrying” isn’t for everyone. ”
Then don’t. That was easy
“It takes a real commitment to know what you are doing and even then bad guys can win and may become more dangerous with the weapon that you haplessly provided.”
The Bad guy can win. However, his odds at winning drastically decrease when I double tap him in the chest. It is that point he loses his enthusiasm.
If I am unarmed, he wins. Do the math, this is not that tough.
The evidence that I am correct is the reality outside your window. When bad people who pick on those they perceive to be helpless, such as yourself, they win. When they mistakenly select someone like me, they have to make a business decision. They can proceed and lose, which results in possible death or retreat and live, to pilfer another day, either way I win.
Your logic can be summed up very simply.
The possibility exists you could lose so therefore just give up.
Please, do not protect me. I will let the police that the ones with 500 hours of more of firearm training do that.
Stones: You were at the meeting last night… at least until you spoke. You like to make you comment and leave. I have seen you do that more than once. I would like to think rational gun carrying individuals would take the time to listen to peoples opinions and questions, not just your own. I pray you do not get into a tough situation in which you prematurely decide to use your weapon.
It’s nice to say that you’ll let the police protect you, but if something were to happen, I’m likely to bet you’d be more than willing to accept help from an armed concerned citizen rather than wait for the cops to show up ten minutes later.
We are all responsible for our own personal protection. Handing off that responsibility to the police or anyone else (except, perhaps, a husband/wife) is irresponsible and asking for trouble.
“Please, do not protect me. I will let the police that the ones with 500 hours of more of firearm training do that.”
Who ever said anything about protecting you ? I am obligated to protect myself and my family. You are on your own. Good luck.
“Stones: You were at the meeting last night… at least until you spoke. You like to make you comment and leave.”
Nice try, I was there until the end. You are either a liar or a Del Poisson hack. I know what previous encounter you are talking about. How predictable.
Do your homework, I attend a whole bunch of community meetings and commit many hours to working on community issues. I don’t need to justify my level of commitment to anyone, especially some Junior Democrat cyber hack.
NovaConservative — There was a car-jacking recently, about a month ago, at knifepoint, right in front of the CVS in the Sterling Park shopping center. Deputies spotted him a short while later and got their man.
Is “not any of you” by chance a voice over for the original UltraMan? His typing/speech pattern is very strange.
“When bad people who pick on those they perceive to be helpless, such as yourself, they win.”
G, as you like to say: stick with what you know. You don’t know me.
I hope with earnest you have a different mentality with your firearm than you do with your mode of discussion.
Edmund, I know you are probably a real tough guy, but your personal belief happens to be that carrying a firearm is more of a hazard than protection. You call those that carry weapons “hapless” and then blame the other side for injecting emotion.
The statistics on guns are very clear. Nothing of what you are emoting is factual – it is your personal belief – and you are entitled to it. Good Luck with that, is all that anyone is saying.
I won’t count on tough guys or the police to protect me, I’ll defend myself.
This is probably the 10th argument that you have come out on the liberal side. Time to hang up your moniker and become Edmundobaminator.
The Bulletproof Monk is spot on. I doubt that any professional or experienced assassin would use a roadside beating or even a beating at all as his weapon of choice. Nor would he risk leaving a possible witness alive. Nor is he likely to operate in a group, leaving others who, if caught, might sing on him in an effort to to save their own hides in a death penalty state. True assassins prefer quick hits with minimal possibilties for complications.
Agreed that we thus far have no evidence of the true nature of this murder. However, what is so hard to believe about a hit taking place at 5:30am? These people probably had a pattern of jogging at that hour and over a specific route. Easy enough to scope out for any kind of hit…professional, gang initiation, personal vengeance, or simple robbery. Moreover, as an active member of Neighborhood Watch, I have personally seen many suspicious characters on foot or driving around our own community at all hours. That’s precisely why I am watching at those hours.
And what is so hard to believe about the possibility of a gang initiation? There has been a spate of such initiations recently. In New York, two MS-13 types on an intitiation gig drove around until they spotted a young Black male standing in front of a store. They stopped, jumped out of the car, pumped a couple of shells into his head, and took off. If I remember correctly, they didn’t even know him. In South Carolina a few weeks ago, three young SUR-13 members ambushed a sheriff’s office deputy in the K-9 unit as part of an initiation, using a shotgun which left him and his dog seriously wounded. In another case, gang members as part of an initiation actually attacked an invalid in a wheel chair, smashing the guy over the head from behind with a baseball bat. You better believe it’s happening. If these guys are willing to ambush an armed law enforcement officer, a couple of middle-aged joggers on a dark street would be a gimme target. Actually the target is only secondary. The initiation is the act of killing, somewhat like that old thing about “making your bones.”
There is always the possibility that these attacks occurred elsewhere and that the bodies were dumped. However, the physical separation of the two victims is interesting. Either the woman was dumped in a spot away from the male (unlikely), she was trying to escape and they caught up with her, or she dragged herself away after the killers left. Probably one of the latter two because the first deputies on scene didn’t even know she was there apparently until some blood smears were noticed on a roadside barrier.
Very tough case for our Sheriff’s Department. Just don’t expect them to give you preliminary answers while the case is on-going. It doesn’t work that way. There are too many ways to screw up a legal case by shooting off one’s mouth prematurely.
My advice? Be careful out there, Don’t fall into patterns which leave you potentially vulnerable. Work to see that your community has a very active Neighborhood Watch. Take this from someone whose profession it was to track down assassins and to role-play the assassin in the training of protective units. The worst mistake you can make in personal protection is to “assume” something. You never assume anything!!
Loudoun Lady, you don’t know me either.
But I can tell from your positions you often wouldn’t know a logical fallacy if it bit you in your holster.
My concern was with idiots with guns. I can write it down for you but I can’t understand it for you.
I won’t get into what a liberal or a conservative is anymore with you — your blinders are permanent.
It would be interesting to know where I made a “liberal” argument. Was it where I said I was glad people have the right to arm themselves? Was it where I said gun owners have a responsibility (commitment) to be knowledgeable?
Yes, Edmund, there is a rash of CCP holders and average citizens that you deem idiots. Therein lies the problem, it is a liberal stance that people can not be trusted with firearms. If you knew what you were talking about you might have some statistics to back up your claims, but you rely on smack talk.
Nobody is even arguing that gunholders have a responsibility be to knowlegable, that is your defense? My concern is idiots making laws against our 2A rights, they are the enemies, not the people.
“Nobody is even arguing that gunholders have a responsibility be to knowlegable.”
I was. You disagree?
“My concern was with idiots with guns.”
The bottom line your concerned about a problem that does not exist. Kinda like worrying about snow storms in Key West.
Your making the connection between idiots with guns and those with who have gone through the process of obtaining a permit.
That is like comparing two other groups that make their living with a firearm, Police Officers and Bank Robbers. The only thing in common is they both might use a gun in the course of their chosen profession. After that it is apples and oranges.
“G, as you like to say: stick with what you know. You don’t know me.”
I think I know you better than you want to admit.
Looks like hanging out with drinkers and packing will have to wait another day.
http://loudounextra.washingtonpost.com/news/2009/mar/27/kaine-vetoes-death-penalty-gun-bill/
I think I remember someone saying they had a gun at the beer bust a couple of years ago. Not very smart if true.
I think the risk of having a gun is too high for me. Perhaps you live in more dangerous area of Loudoun than I, but consider these risks of toting a gun: 1) Risk of being shot by a police office who thinks you are reaching for your gun. The officer is always right and besides you are dead so you can’t explain you were just reaching for your wallet. 2) Being arrested and jailed for a long time for carrying in the wrong place because you didn’t keep up with the myriad of rules. That parcel of land that you cut across while walking the dog is really school property and bringing guns on school property is a felony. 3) Some of your children’s friends find your unsecured gun tucked under the pillow and while goofing off kills one of your children. 4) You accidently shoot your best friend and neighbor who, coming home drunk, mistakenly enters your unlocked patio door thinking it is his house.
If you think a gun makes you safer, I support your right to have one. But guns aren’t for everyone and my life is clearly safer with a cell phone than a gun.
Ed myers, If you don’t want to carry a gun that is your decision, but your reasons are just illogical. I don’t even have time to dispell all your faulty logic and assumptions.
EdmundObaminator: Once again, nobody here disagrees that gun holders need to be responsible and knowleagable. What is there to miss?
The true idiots and the biggest risk of death is on the roads. We have 10 times the deaths on our highways as we do from homicides. And all of the highway deaths are random unlike nearly all of the homicides which are domestic. So do the people here who worry about random threats to their safety drive around in armored Hummers at speeds always less than 25 mph? If not then this isn’t a rational discussion about safety, is it?
Loudoun Lady, Each of my examples were taken from Washington Area news stories. So each of these situations can and have happened to someone. Do you drive a Hummer at slow enough speeds not to kill yourself if it hits a tree because someone cut you off? Or do you just stay home because driving is too dangerous?
Not any of you …. I have over 600 hours of training and qualifying… once every thirty days for much of my career.
I suppose you hope that we fund the Sheriffs office, specifically for those “transporter” pads that allow the police to instantly “beam” to your location??
“Take this from someone whose profession it was to track down assassins and to role-play the assassin in the training of protective units.”
Wolverine… Have we worked together in the past, ol’ buddy? Love to compare locations and protection detail’s cliff notes from 1989 to 1996.
Using the notion that you live in a safe area and don’t need to carry is so not valid given what happened in the community of Lansdowne last weekend. We all have a responsiblity to protect ourselves in an appropriate manner. If you don’t want to arm yourself, then make sure you are super-aware of your surroundings, carry a whistle or can of Mace, anything that you could use to defend yourself or fend off an attack, even a sharp car key can be effective. No matter what time of day or where you are, you live in a world where lawless people think they have a right to your car, TV set, jewelry, GPS, etc. and they will take it from you if they can. They prey on those they perceive to be weaker than they are and are unsuspecting.
What we can all learn from this awful tragedy is that we owe it to ourselves, our families, and our communities to be vigilant and safe at all times. I believe that if you train correctly and follow the safety procedures in that training, that carrying a gun is sensible. If you think like a wild west cowboy and just buy yourself any old gun to “protect” yourself, you could be asking for big trouble.
In my reading, I believe I’ve learned that Vermont (yes, that liberal bastion to the north of us) has little or no gun restrictions. That means that the citizens can arm themselves without a lot of hassle. Vermont has a tremendously low crime rate. Hmmmm.
Be safe and don’t knock it if someone believes in using their constitutional right to lawfully carry a gun…
Ed Myers, People like to pull news stories out and use then as general argument points, when in reality they have little validity. There are thousands of conceal carry permit holders in VA alone. There are 10’s of thousands of LEO’s in VA – all agencies combined. Throw MD and DC into the mix, and triple your LEOs (not so much CCP). Additionally you have 100’s of thousands of legal owners across this area. You take 3-4 story out of the past 10 years (probably from the Wash Post) about someone getting “shot because they were carrying int he wrong place” etc. and you have the equivalent of a bad argument. It makes your weird Hummer analysis sound legitimate.
I think my overarching point is this: If a citizen wants to carry a gun, and is willing to put in the time and effort neccessary to be a responsible gun owner (and by that I mean extensive training, storage safeguards, and proper permitting), then fine. But that should be a decision you make irrespective of what just happened in landsdowne. One isolated incident like that should not be the reason, and its no reason to encourage people who are doing it solely out of illogical fear to run out and by guns–because those are exactly the people that I DO worry about owning a gun. And look–I support the 2nd amendment, but its silly to pretend there are NO gun accidents. Its not the gun’s fault, its the owner’s fault, and there ARE irresponsible owners. Its silly to pretend there aren’t.
Again, there’s no reason to overreact just because of this one incident.
Me: “My concern was with idiots with guns.”
You: “The bottom line your concerned about a problem that does not exist.”
Riiigghht. Never has an idiot held a firearm in your world.
I only needed one example (I gave 4) to poke a hole in the absolutist “we would be safer if everyone carried a gun” argument. Random killings are really rare in our area. So why, Loudoun Lady, should everyone prepare for a low probability situation (random killing) by investing in a gun and all the training to use it safely when you don’t practice that approach for the much higher risk of death in a traffic accident?
Loudoun Watcher, I simply don’t carry enough cash or drive a vehicle that is worth enough that I would kill someone to keep them from stealing it. Someone with a gun can have all my worldy possessions because in a civilized society justice is achieved another way.
ed, the sad fact is there are more than a few people out there who like to kill for reasons other than robbery, some premeditated, some in a fit of rage, provoked or not.
“Someone with a gun can have all my worldy possessions because in a civilized society justice is achieved another way.”
Virginia is not Texas. Property theft is not justification for the use of deadly force. If there is a risk of death of significant bodily injury to yourself or a loved one, would you feel the same way ?
Justice and self preservation are two entirely different legal concepts.
“We have 10 times the deaths on our highways as we do from homicides.”
When someone accidently or otherwise plows into me with a 3 ton vehicle, I have very little recourse.
Now, when someone decides to come after me with a 1lb knife, I do.
The news tonight said that the CIA and the FBI were both now investigating the case.
Very interesting.
On what grounds are the CIA and the FBI investigating? Does the CIA have a crime investigation unit?
My theory is that three junkies were driving around, looking for someone to mug, rob, or burgle, for their next fix. Being the idiots that they were/are, they decided to rob the Bennetts, because it didn’t occur to the dopes that walkers don’t care wallets and purses. When the Bennetts told them that they had no money, said idiots threatened them with some object. When that didn’t work, they got angry, and beat them.
Since three idiots were involved, their activities won’t be a secret for long. At least one of them will blab, in what they would consider a brag. Once the reward money grows to a significant amount, they’ll turn on each other, or one of their buddies/relatives will turn in the gang of idiots.
You know, I originally bought a nice handgun to have fun with, not for self-defense. I didn’t feel threatened. I learned to shoot and took classes and I’m having a great time with it and I’m a pretty damn good shot. I’ve always taken training for things I was interested in and so, among other classes, I took a concealed carry class. It was very informative and well-run by the NRA. I didn’t just run out and buy any old gun, either. I checked out different models, and shot them and decided which one I liked. I don’t normally carry. But when this whole thing with Lansdowne came up, I decided I’ve got the permit, got the gun, know how to use it, and I’ll feel a lot safer just now if I have it with me in a place where I can produce it if necessary. I don’t recommend that everyone go out a buy a weapon. Geez.
And I don’t believe for one minute that 3 drugged out fools were driving around at 5:30 a.m. looking to rob someone. Do you?
I was taught a long time ago, if you point a gun at someone, then you should be ready to take their life. Firearms should NOT be used to ’scare someone off’, the are used for hunting and lethal protection. The point is guns are not unsafe, they are only as safe as their owner.
In my younger years I worked for the NRA in the Grassroots division and I fully support the right to bear arms. The issue I have is giving this right to some extreme ‘nut job’ or someone who is an illegal immigrant zealot.
In the case of the Bennett murder, I bet it will turn out that it was a professional hit, not an random act of illegal immigrant violence. Why do you think the CIA & FBI are working with the LCSO?
dans, you do have recourse. You could buy a tank (Hummer) and drive it really slow or you could stop using the roads. The point is that people on this forum are quite comfortable with highway deaths as a risk factor in our lives and just live with it. But told of a much lower risk risk of random homicide and some people advocate we do stupid things like buy handguns we don’t know need or know how to use to make us feel safer. That is bad advice. Random killings are part of life that we should actively try to minimize. However a non-lethal solution to reducing the risk of random death (be it homicide or traffic accidents) is better than the lethal solution carrying a gun implies. This is the pro-life approach.
“In the case of the Bennett murder, I bet it will turn out that it was a professional hit”
Read thru the reasoning it wasn’t above. There was nothing professional about it. (and to the person that said my version was TV induced– I was trained to think like an assassin, so that I might best STOP attempts on people I was charged with protecting. The silent “in” and even more silent “exit” is paramount in a professional hit) Bludgeoning your target isn’t even considered.
Ed, you poor mis-guided and illiterate individual. You have to remove so much fact from situations before you twist ‘em up.
60% of individuals who now carry concealed are very comfortable with a weapon on their person because they’ve had one there in their professional life. The other 40 % have to take a class and show proficiency with the issues, care and storage of that weapon.
Your fears (as listed above) are figments of your imagination, are faulty and unrealistic, and had no place in a factual argument.
Monk – you have a valid point and we can agree to disagree with respect to the details of the Bennett murder & assult. None of us really knows the details all we can share is the tragedy of this crime.
My gut just tells me that there was nothing random about this and further details will be washed away by various Federal agencies investigating this crime.
BPM, Thank you for reinforcing that feelings and emotion are what Ed Myers is using, not logic and facts.
Quite frankly, we do drive larger cars rather than small lightweight vehicles because we are concerned about even the smallest traffic accidents with our kids in the car. We also try to mitigate the risks of being attacked or robbed by locking our doors and not walking alone at night, etc. Further, we exercise our 2A rights. I don’t understand why this is so “complex” because it is rather simple.
I haven’t run out and bought a Hummer and I am not over reacting now by advocating exercising a right set forth by our founding fathers. Call me a radical!
P2P, I don’t think this couple was targeted because of who the husband was, but I also don’t think this was random. I think whoever did this was ready to kill someone and the Bennetts were in the wrong place at the wrong time. The motive of the murderers is not something I feel equipped to guess on.
This thread has been a learning tool for me. I don’t want the responsibility of owning a weapon. And I don’t feel threatened in my day-to-day activities. If I did, I think my protection of choice would be the little pistola-type gizmo that shoots pepper spray 25 feet with seven charges in a cartridge. The pain lasts 30 minutes and the attacker doesn’t die. And It comes in a nice pink. I know, it is no competition for a real handgun in a life-threatening situation but its ownership doesn’t scare the dickens out of me.
A gun is by definition an offensive weapon that you have to use before you know for certain your attacker’s real intent. A bulletproof vest, locked doors, pepper spray, etc. are defensive solutions. A person truely interested in protecting life would look first at defensive solutions, not immediately advocate premptive death.
I want one of those star trek phaser gizmos so I can disable Loudoun Lady’s car when she’s barrelling down the road towards me while talking on her cell phone and applying makeup. That is the real threat to my life.
Loudoun Moderate, you win the thread for having a most reasonable position and strategy.
Know your comfort zone and your limitations and create solutions within them.
“I want one of those star trek phaser gizmos so I can disable Loudoun Lady’s car when she’s barrelling down the road towards me while talking on her cell phone and applying makeup. That is the real threat to my life.”
- ed myers
What a complete and utter ass Ed Myers. Stereotyping seems to be your thing, so have your little fun.
“A person truely interested in protecting life would look first at defensive solutions, not immediately advocate premptive death.”
Who the hell is advocating pre-emptive death? I am advocating self defense. You are a real tool, Ed.
Man, ed myers, I’ve always liked your comments on so many issues, but you are way off base with this.
edmundburkenator, I agree that one should only choose a defensive option that one is comfortable with. I haven’t seen anyone here want to tell someone to buy a gun if they don’t want one. This is a free choice matter. If you want a gun, buy it and educate yourself, and practice. All of the local ranges have classes available for training. If you are not comfrotable with a gun, sprays and tasersmay be a suitable option. Again, only purchase what you feel comfortable with. I think simply ignoring it and hoping the police will rescue you is irresponsible. It is very seldom that the police are able to intervene in the midst of an attack.
Funny thing is, no one that I can read is disagreeing with Loudoun Moderate or Edmund’s comments that people should do what they are comfortable with. Around and around we go.
“The point is that people on this forum are “quite comfortable with highway deaths as a risk factor in our lives and just live with it. ”
Uh, not quite. If this were true we all would very likely be driving Mini Coopers or Miatas. I believe that many bear this in mind when they buy a two ton, five star rated minivan as the family hauler.
While we have accepted the number of highway deaths as a consequence of modern life, none of us are prepared to accept ours, or a family member. Case in point, we wore our seat belts before it was law. Again, we are back to that self preservation concept. Some do value their existence.
Bottom line, some here have chosen to be prepared for the contingency of a violent personal assault. LI is right, this is a personal decision. I have no more right to tell you that you must, then you have to tell me that I must not. This is how the freedom thing works.
“gun is by definition an offensive weapon that you have to use before you know for certain your attacker’s real intent.”
It’s really not a small world after all ed. State statute and case law clearly defines what is and what is not the justifiable use of a defensive weapon.
“On what grounds are the CIA”
It has been reported that Bennet had been a contractor for the CIA.
“professional hit”
Unlikely, would a professional have left a living witness ?
I’m not disagreeing with the basic premise of self defense and the freedom to choose to own a gun. So what’s with the grouchiness because I think my life is safer without a gun? And, why should I worry about a random homicide impacting my personal safety when that is not even in the top 10 most likely ways I will die? When we focus too much on statistically unlikely events we miss an opportunity to improve our overall personal safety by focusing on those things that would make a real difference. That’s what is missing from this discussion and even goading hasn’t gotten anyone to acknowledge or offer a a reasoned opposition to that point.
When I sought details of the Lansdowne murders from the LoCo WP site and read the accompanying comments I was as disgusted as I was reading what little details are known about the crime. The hateful vitriol, the wild assumptions, and the chest thumping commenters turned my stomach more than reading about the murders.
I’m not a statistician, nor do I play one on TV. I’ve watched various fringe interest groups cook numbers during my entire adult life so forgive me for my eyes glazing over when people post churned numbers as absolute truth.
I think Bulletproof unintentionally hit the nail on the head one his very first post when joking about possibly regretting arming his wife( BTW BPM- great pic with you and Robbie Duval. I had imagined you grayer with more facial hair). One can’t ignore the many different possibilities of things going wrong within a family unit when guns are present- period.
I should back up. I’m glad I live in a country in which I am allowed to keep and bear arms. I keep guns in my home and I enjoy blasting stuff from time to time (I can’t say I enjoy the company of “gun enthusiasts”, nor would you get me anywhere near a gun show)I was given my first gun at the ripe age of 7. I was taught basic gun safety and gun care along with shooting lessons from a pro. Hunting was a part of daily life in LoCo back then- the first day of deer season was practically a school holiday and every pickup worth it’s salt had a gun rack in the back window.
On more than one occasion I rode the school bus with a firearm (shotgun), turned it in to the Principal during the school day, then retrieved it and sat outside the school waiting to be picked up by my father.
Distrusting statistics involving huge numbers covering vast areas usually brings me to look locally for relevant information. I’m not going to look at national figures for say, petty crime if I’m trying to decide wether to lock my doors. I’m going to look at the local crime report.
Turns out Erika Garmen of “Living in LoCo” did just that- she compiled a list of all the murders in Loudoun County in the last 5 years. Assuming her list is accurate, one had more of a chance of being killed by an acquaintance or relative than by a stranger during the last 5 years in this county. From the sounds of it, a few of these people had their own guns used against them along with a kid who “goofing off” shot his friend. This reality of life in Loudoun does not make me want to run out and buy a handgun for Mrs AFF, nor do I feel safer when others do.
I’ve read more than a few comments from LL and ll. I’m sure it will come as no surprise to either one of them that since I wouldn’t trust them with my dry cleaning I’m not too cool with them running about town with firearms jiggling on their hips. I have just as much concern over their “2A” firearms causing harm to my family as I do to being assaulted and shot by a bad guy. As a previous poster already brought up, legally carrying a firearm is logistically challenging. The temptation for a housewife to leave a gun in a less than secure location “just for a second” while they run into school to unexpectedly pick up a sick child, or dash into Traffic Court to pay a forgotten ticket would be great. I need more than shallow reassurances that LL’s gun fetish isn’t going to cause my community harm. “Trust me”, isn’t cutting the mustard. If LL’s 2A gun ends up in my child’s school through her carelessness I want her ass (legally) in jail. Current laws wouldn’t accomplish this- mandatory trigger lock or gun safe laws might.
Rereading though this thread disturbs me as well, although not nearly to the extent that the WP LoCo threads did. Brandishing a firearm for effect would have my gun loving grandpa rolling over in his grave and pretty much goes against every bit of gun safety I have ever been taught. I’m glad LI has a shotgun, but the first time he answers his door with it and starts waving it around I’m taking him off the community barbecue committee and adding him to the “crazy neighbors we don’t talk to list”. You know the folks- they’re the ones screaming about how VT wouldn’t have happened if college students just had more guns……perhaps kids in Loudoun could start bringing guns to school again too?
Hopefully, society will find the legislative solutions to the gun questions somewhere in the middle.
I’m glad I won’t see you coming around, AFF!
I never said a thing about “waving it around”. Give me a break – quit exaggerating this.
I didn’t mean to misquote you LI. You said-
“I’m always well armed – it’s a prudent precaution to take. Remember, simply brandishing a weapon deters much more crime than firing one.”
You need to brush up on your gun safety killer
AFF, We must decouple what is known about the Lansdowne murder from what is being released to the public, as I am sure LCSO is holding things close to the vest. This is now very normal for a criminal investigation. LCSO has a very good track record at solving this type of cases, so I have the utmost in confidence in them to come through again.
I am sure you are aware that brandishing is illegal in not just Virginia (18.2-282), but also in most states.
Yes, we do see stats about acquaintances shooting another. But, many of these that I have seen, do not exclude gang activity. The informal study you reference mentions a 5 year window, which also coincides with the increase in LoCo gang activity doesn’t it ? I can think of 4 homicides in eastern Loudoun where the victims knew their assailants, and these were all gang related.
Everyone agrees that keeping guns out of the hands of children is a big part of the responsibly of gun ownership. The reality is that the vast majority of those that accept this responsibility do. Are there a few that don’t ? I am sure there are, just as there are parents who give them access to beer, or weed. Look hard enough and yes, you will find an exception.
“The temptation for a housewife to leave a gun in a less than secure location “just for a second””
The law requires a gun be locked up in the vehicle. Think this is a bit of a red herring..
Dan- perhaps I should have posted a link
http://loudounextra.washingtonpost.com/blogs/living-loco/2009/mar/27/look-murder-loco-five-years-back/
Thanks AFF.
Thanks again AFF. We should all feel safer now, and we should overlook the several hundred aggravated assaults, and 200 rapes that occurred over the same time period.
I’m convinced, we should all sell our gun, and buy the armor plated Hummer that ed mentions.
But wait, won’t the Hummer cause more global warming than a gun ? Decisions, decisions..
For God’s sakes I’m not talking about waving a gun around for the hell of it, I’m talking about using it to deter bodily harm. I’m also not a killer, AFF.
If you were an NRA member you would be treated to the monthly edition of The Armed Citizen, a column of news clips from around the country where the legal use of firearms deters crimes, often without a shot being fired. Here’s the latest:
http://www.nrapublications.org/AC/index.html
Home invasion style robbery reported in Landsdowne. No one was hurt. The story is in Leesburg Today, online.
I think that we are at the same time narrowing this discussion too much by limiting our statistics to actual homicides and broadening it a bit too much by making all of Loudoun County the area parameter.
I live in Sterling Park. The Big Lots and Safeway shootings plus a drive-by shooting in 2006 and another in 2008 all took place within about a mile of each other. Throw in two forcible rapes (knife in one; weapon in the other not yet revealed) and an attempted street rape in 2008 in the same area. Add to that a recent serious stabbing in one of our neighborhoods; a number of street muggings and attempted muggings; several street attacks, some using a baseball bat, others with the implied possession of a weapon; and a recent carjacking at knifepoint in our principal shopping center. Finally, toss in a rash of home burglaries, many in broad daylight, and a plague of car break-ins and car thefts. Also recognize that Sterling Park has been plagued for a number of years by a very real gang problem and some serious gang rivalries which often threaten to result in violence. Much of this has taken place in a rather limited area of a few square miles.
Also consider that the Big Lots and Safeway shootings took place during shopping hours when innocent bystanders are most likely to be caught in any crossfire. Drive-by shootings, moreover, can often result in bullets hitting nearby homes or going through windows with fatal results. We have seen this often, for instance, in D.C.
Perhaps if you live in a gated community or an area of the county with relatively little crime, you may think that those who advocate so forcefully for self-arming and concealed carry are alarmists. If you have lived in a place like Sterling Park, especially during the past five-six years, you could well be expected to have a very different opinion. If you are wise enough to see that the problems which are currently tormenting Sterling Park just might arrive at your own doorstep in the not too distant future, you may also want to revise your own thinking a bit.
How does carrying a gun protect a citizen from a stray bullet from a gang battle? Or a drive-by shooting? We want practical solutions to personal and family safety since conceal permits don’t come with magic protective shields.
to all the naysayers…. don’t pass judgment on others for wanting to protect themselves… the police are only here in a reactive mode and cannot predict, control or end crime… i have several friends at the nra, but don’t believe all of their rhetoric, but would not be here if it weren’t for protecting myself… it’s a sad, but true fact, that we have white, black, hispanic and other bad folks out there. it seems in loudoun county that the majority of reported crime in the local papers are committed by illegal aliens…. it’s not a pretty picture of our federal gevernment including both past and present…. carrying doesn’t prevent a stray bullet as mentioned above, especially for the 50 something year old man in the newberry condo area of sterling, but i will tell you this, it sure would make any feel better at night getting to and from their home…. in reference to the gated communities, there have been several high profile criminals recently arrested in my soon to be old community. it is only as good as the security and the residents within the community…. our politicians and police (sherriff) often turn a blind eye to the hoodlums of the world until a high profile incident occurs then it’s all about damage control.
rwn,
when was the last time an intentional hit on someone left a person alive, caused a commotion loud enough for neighbors to call the sheriff, parked their vehicle in plain sight of neighbors, was precipitated by a beating, etc. you would make a wonderful police officer like mayberry, n.c……
” I need more than shallow reassurances that LL’s gun fetish isn’t going to cause my community harm. “Trust me”, isn’t cutting the mustard. If LL’s 2A gun ends up in my child’s school through her carelessness I want her ass (legally) in jail”
AFF, this is completely out of line. To insinuate that I would put children in danger is unbelievable. I have 2 children, I don’t take gun ownership lightly. You don’t know me and to accuse me of being careless and putting children at risk is disgusting but predicatable.
AFF, please point to any evidence you have that I would ever put a child in danger. I have done nothing but promote safe and responsible gun ownership on this thread. It does not surprise me that you and Ed have resorted to personal attacks (ed’s being of the SEXIST variety), none of which you have aimed at any MEN.
Hey women on this board, don’t express your opinions too strongly on TC or the Liberal men will take issue with your attitude and personally take you down. Same old tactics, can’t argue the facts so use the Saul Alinsky tactics of turning it personal. I see you all have learned well.
“The temptation for a housewife to leave a gun in a less than secure location “just for a second” while they run into school to unexpectedly pick up a sick child, or dash into Traffic Court to pay a forgotten ticket would be great.”
Missed this, now women that carry are hairbrained housewifes. All I can say is WOW. Unbelievable. I hope you don’t talk to your wife, mother, sister or daughter this way. Whether you work or stay at home with your kids, this is an insult to all women.
No mention of men being hairbrained, typical.
“A person truely interested in protecting life would look first at defensive solutions, not immediately advocate premptive death.”
Ed, you lose again, because you are out of your league in this discussion. Until you have taken one of the courses that are readily available to anyone who wants one…you’ll remain dumbfounded and on the losing end of this discussion.
Addressing your point above— the training classes (as well as my professional training) introduce individuals who aim to possess the power of a firearm to the numerous steps of escalating force, and address the final step in escalated force….deadly force.
The entry levels of force??? That’s vigilance and awareness of your surroundings. That’s followed by an elevated presence– If you look unapproachable, those who are watching you for signs of weakness probably won’t do it if you look aware and capable.
That’s only the first two levels of escalating force. Your ignorance of those levels defeats your participation in any debate until you’ve searched for the levels and memorized them. Your assertion that we all just start blazin’ is fiction, and can easily be shattered with the full list of those “levles” of force, and removing your emotion from the discussion.
“A person truely interested in protecting life would look first at defensive solutions, not immediately advocate premptive death.”
Ed, you lose again, because you are out of your league in this discussion. Until you have taken one of the courses that are readily available to anyone who wants one…you’ll remain dumbfounded and on the losing end of this discussion.
Addressing your point above— the training classes (as well as my professional training) introduce individuals who aim to possess the power of a firearm to the numerous steps of escalating force, and address the final step in escalated force….deadly force.
The entry levels of force??? That’s vigilance and awareness of your surroundings. That’s followed by an elevated presence– If you look unapproachable, those who are watching you for signs of weakness probably won’t do it if you look aware and capable.
That’s only the first two levels of escalating force. Your ignorance of those levels defeats your participation in any debate until you’ve searched for the levels and memorized them. Your assertion that we all just start blazin’ is fiction, and can easily be shattered with the full list of those “levels” of force, and removing your emotion from the discussion.
Investigate the “use of force continuum”.
You may not be in a uniform, or even afforded some of the levels that professional law enforcement is afforded.. but there is a general conduct that applies to all who hold firearm ownership.
A use of force continuum generally goes something like this:
1. Escape, remove yourself from the risk. (I persoanlly liken this to being aware of your surroundings so you do not obliviously “walk into ” trouble.)
2. Verbal command to stop.(but because everyone does not listen, we proceed)
3. Physical command to stop. Maybe something like holding up your hand in the halt position and saying “back off” or “give me space.”
4. Use of empty hand techniques.(otherwise known as martial arts–which also comes with a complete set of deadly force issues)
5. Use of chemical weapons.
(Here’s that mace option-which is preferred to actually killing anyone)
6. Use of batons, clubs, keys, pens and the like.(all of these, like level 3 forward in this list, assume that your offender isn’t armed with a firearm- because that alone, escalates to immediate dealy force from you or him)
7. Use of deadly force.
As you can see, there are an awful lot of steps in between. All of these (as only half of the subject matter in the course) are covered in any reputable classroom for the operation of a firearm to protect one’s family or the general public.
That other half of the subject matter in those classes? Well, they cover what happens when we’ve exhausted all other options and must fire to protect ourselves. First, they drill into your skull that you need to establish what, if anything, is directly behind your target…so in the event of a miss, you have a very real concept of what you’ll actually hit. And that’s just the first part they teach.
Some of the biggest naysayers should sit thru these classes if only to identify the myths that they have used to express their ignorance.
BM first fault: assuming that everyone who owns a gun has and maintains professional training. Second fault is assuming that everyone needs a bravado booster by packing heat. I have lived longer than most here without ever getting into a situation where I could have used a gun even as a show of force. I don’t need a gun as a crutch and therefore the risk of accidents from having one around is too high for me. Maybe you run with a dangerous crowd and your situation is different. Someday my situation might change and I’ll get a gun again. That’s why I support 2A rights but reject the extremists who want to legislate that everyone must have a gun.
BM, If you must measure a discussion in terms of winners and losers instead of enjoying learning from diverse opinions by sharing perceptions, then notice which side refuses to rationally discuss why they think investing in a gun and training is safer than investing in say defensive driving classes or safer cars.
Name calling and feigned insults are what people resort to when one’s logic fails and emotions take over, right LL?
Ed, who has said that everyone must get a gun here??? No one that I could read. Sure there may be some wacky extremists somewhere that advocate that, but I do not. As stated earlier, everyone should select a self defense option that they are comfortable with – everything from nothing at all to concealed carry. This should be a choice we are entitled to as free Americans.
You complain about the tone and tenor of this argument, yet you continually make overblown assumptions. You are just as guilty of hyperbole as some of the others here.
LI- I apologize for embellishing and sensationalizing your statement. You set yourself up by endorsing “brandishing” a weapon, which as Monk and even LL pointed out, is a serious no no.
(I think) I understand what you were ultimately suggesting- that it doesn’t hurt for people to know you are an armed household and one should be wary when answering the door late. I was just funning a little, although I would mention that when it is known that one has valuable guns in the house it can help make you a target for robbery- life experience there.
Thanks for the NRA link, but I will pass. I used to be a member of the NRA (a gift) and had more than a few chances to review their, er, “literature”.
Wolverine- point made and taken. We live in different worlds. You want to steal my car? The keys are in the ignition, probably along with my wife’s purse (I actually have asked her to break this habit- the purse that is).
You want to steal something from our house? The doors are open, come in and help yourself, although sometimes we lock up at night.
There was an attempted rape recently down the road, and we have an unsolved murder going more than 5 years back in addition to a missing persons case which probably involved foul play. Regardless, I have to acknowledge that the odds of a property crime happening to one of us would most likely happen where you live.
I truly feel for the residents of older first generation suburbs similar to Sterling Park. People were sold the suburban american dream and what they got instead were the slums of the future.
For the first time in american history more lower income people are living in these older suburbs while the cities have become more upscale desirable locales. The well documented middle class flight from the cities has reversed itself (which was predicted and pretty well documented too)
In short, I don’t know how I would handle living with more crime around me and I’m not going to judge you if you decide to keep a gun around for self defense- if it ends up in the wrong hands though because of your carelessness, I want your ass.
LL, save it. I read through this entire thread. With the exception of not endorsing brandishing at no point did you do you do anything but play lip service to gun safety.
You wrote-
“I’m with LI and BPM on arming yourself. It is not an overreaction and I suggest everyone take advantage of this right. If you think the mere possession of a gun, or the legal carrying of one escalates violence, you have a lot to learn.”
Considering that the majority of murders in LoCo over the last 5 years involved relatives (husband, mother, husband, daughter/granddaughter) and most of the others involved acquaintances ( friend, childhood friend (whoops so sorry) lover, lover) your theory of guns always making your life safer is fucking shot- pun intended.
Then you wrote-
“Nobody is even arguing that gunholders have a responsibility be to knowlegable, that is your defense? My concern is idiots making laws against our 2A rights, they are the enemies, not the people.”
Yup- you have no problem with responsibility, just only the kind of responsibility that you think is okay. When the public calls on gun owners to have a LEGAL responsibility, you call them the enemy.
As Dan pointed out, one already has the legal responsibility to lock their gun up in their car when they are not present, so I’m sure you will have no problem with being required to have a trigger lock on it too? Right?
I look forward to a detailed explanation of what passes as proper gun safety in your house as well as a list of what precautions your family takes to make sure your guns don’t fall into the wrong hands.
Monk, I am very comfortable with your training and your listing of the proper use of deadly force. Unfortunately, any idiot can buy a handgun, not just the folks who know how to properly use them.
How would you feel about some sort of required training in order to be able to purchase a handgun? (I realize that CCPs do)
104… Harebrained people are members of both sexes. Some harebrained people carry and some don’t.
LI,
Your comment below certainly sounded like you think having a gun on hand is a universal good for everyone:
“I’m always well armed – it’s a prudent precaution to take. Remember, simply brandishing a weapon deters much more crime than firing one.”
There are towns that have passed laws requiring gun ownership (Kennesaw, GA, Geuda Springs, KA) so its pretty easy to think you might be for that sort of thing with a statement like above. Thanks for clarifying that it is a choice not to own a gun.
I don’t mind the tone of this discussion. And hyperbole and banter is sometimes needed to get to the edges of the issue so we can plumb the middle ground. I was pointing out LL’s emotional outburst as proof that BM was wrong to think that logic is what supports the pro-gun ownership position and emotion is the driving force for not owning a gun. The reverse is more likely true. Irrational fear drives some to purchase a gun without considering that for most citizens in Loudoun County that decision will slightly increase the risk of violent death in that household.
Ed Myers and AFF have some good points with which I totally agree. They are preaching to the choir in that specific regard. We badly do need some practical solutions to our personal safety problems. Unfortunately the very nature of our political system and our politics seems to delay finding those solutions until some of us pay the utimate price for the current lack of them. I find it very difficult to simply sit back and wait patiently, especially when I find myself at the epicenter of a crime zone.
I will admit that it is hard to pinpoint exactly how an armed citizen might be able to intervene in something like the Safeway shooting or a drive-by shooting. As I understand it, the Safeway shooting began when the shooter killed his ex-girlfriend. Unimpeded by anyone else, he then had time to chase down the new boyfriend and dispatch him in a separate location before turning the gun on himself. Everyone else ran for it or took cover. As a result, the shooter was given virtually a free hand to track down the second victim and dispatch him like a sheep in a slaughter house.
Somehow I suspect that, if a Bulletproof Monk or a Dans had been there, for instance, that shooter might not have had such a free hand. This has indeed happened on occasion when a shooter started a slaughter in a restaurant or other venue. I had relatives of friends who died in a Texas restaurant a number of years ago. All they had for protection was some overturned tables. If only someone had been there with the courage and the means….
If someone comes in to your neighborhood and starts shooting up the home of one of your neighbors, do you just dive for cover, call 911, and hope that your neighbor or his family members do not die before the police arrive or do you use my own skills and training to try to keep those deaths from happening? I throw that question back to both of you. What would you do if you had the firepower and skills to fight back?
I guess when it comes down to it much depends on past experience. I once had a crazed guy with a heavy weapon banging right into my earhole, babbling away in a language I did not speak. The guy who saved my life did not call for help or reinforcements. He ended the thing right then and there, just the three of us on a very dark street. Bless that guy wherever he may be.
I do understand your attitude toward weapons. Strangely enough, I don’t like them awfully much myself and always have a healthy respect for the inherent dangers. But there does come a time when you consider the alternatives and that fact that it is not just you in potential danger but also others whom you love and who do not have your defensive training and skills. You begin to feel a certain obligation.
And AFF, about getting my ass. If you do not start locking up your car and if someone steals it and uses it in the process of harming my family, I just might come for your behind as well. Lock it up, pal, please. Security starts at home.
“Unfortunately, any idiot can buy a handgun, not just the folks who know how to properly use them.”
We have to establish exactly which lot we’re speaking of. CCP people do have to go thru the training. Buyers, by and large…do not.
Good comeback, Wolverine!
If you have NetFlix watch the movie “Survivors” with Robin Williams and Walter Mathow. A lot of parallels to what we are going through here. Same thing: downturn in the economy in 82, people getting laid off, crime going up, and people over reacting and getting armed. I do not think everyone should be armed. I think it is your right though and you should really think do you have the temperament to carry one. FYI I have conceal carry. I know I have recommended some of my friends not too because they are hot heads.
I’m the first to agree. Hotheads are probably bad choices for firearms. And I fully support the whole set of training principles be adhered to if this is their first weapon.
Everyone who handles a sidearm (or shotgun, rifle or other) should understand that
A. if you put forth that you’ll use it, mean it…
B. if you do use it, know when to do that. Know what non-lethal means you have available to you, and employ them all –as your adversary allows you to. If he gives you no choice–be prepared to dispatch him.
C. Know what you’re firing into , should you miss your intended target. This is no time to hit innocent bystanders. If you need to move to one side or the other to clear an area behind an obviously dedicated jagoff…do so prior to the shot.
Wolverine- I really like some of what you are saying. I did some loose ends on taxes last night, and work is crazy this morning- I’ll try and check in midday.
BPM- you too. I want all CCps to know that stuff in their sleep. Thanks.
I look forward to a detailed explanation of what passes as proper gun safety in your house as well as a list of what precautions your family takes to make sure your guns don’t fall into the wrong hands.
- AFF
I owe you no explanation of anything I do in my house, suffice it to say my better half has over a dozen years of training that BPM and Wolverine would be proud of. If you weren’t so nasty I might actually engage you in conversation, but when someone inclines that I would allow a child access to a handgun they have gone too far. Your children are more in danger from your lack of knowledge than they are any gun owner I know.
Good Day AFF, I’ll be reminding the women on this blog of your and ed’s penchant for personal and sexist attacks on women. I have a long memory.
How would you feel about some sort of required training in order to be able to purchase a handgun? (I realize that CCPs do)
- AFF
No. You just don’t get it.
“That’s why I support 2A rights but reject the extremists who want to legislate that everyone must have a gun. ‘
Like that is a real problem. You can count on one hand the number of places in America where you are required to own a firearm. Talk about a non-issue.
If you want one , buy one and know you are responsible for its safe use. If you don’t want one the don’t get one. Just stop lecturing me because I chose to have one or two or three or……..
Wolverine,
First off, you got me on the cars. I would feel awful if a kid stole one, went joyriding and hurt someone. I suspect I would be disqualified from my auto insurance in addition to being libel. I hear you loud and clear- often one has to alter their habits and behavior for the general safety of the community and I am willing to do so.
I relate to what I have heard from you in regards to your overall feeling towards guns. Similar to tractors, powertools, and fast cars, guns should be respected and part of that respect comes from the knowledge of the awful power you are dealing with.
Nothing scares me more than watching some Yoyo’s eyes light up with power when they handle a weapon- you know the type. Camo wearing wanna be Army dudes who could never make it through basic training. My blood runs cold when I look at some of the characters exiting the local gun shops.
As to the scenarios you posed, I just don’t know. I’m not very familiar with the Safeway situation, but it seemed to involve people who all knew each other from gang connections. I guess I’m just glad no innocent bystanders were shot and I wonder how a person could have intervened without greater risk to others.
Same goes for the neighbor scenario- If I knew the neighbors well I would want to help, but my first instinct would be to protect my family which would involve staying at home in a defensive position. It would be very hard to sit on my hands next door if I knew someone was shooting up my elderly neighbors, so here’s to hoping neither one of us are ever in that position. I know one thing- I’d be glad I have a firearm in the house.
I think I know what you are getting at so I slightly reframed the situations-
Yesterday some nut walked into a nursing home in North Carolina and killed 7 or so elderly persons. Do I wish that one of those lovely old ladies had pulled a gun out from behind their pillow, unloaded 5 shots in a fist sized pattern right between the sicko’s nipples thus saving the lives of yesterday’s victims? Of course I do.
Do I wish that on that awful day at VT Bulletproof, while touring the campus with a young relative and having forgotten to leave his CW at home, was able to plug Cho and save most those students lives? Hell yes!
But once I put emotion aside and begin looking for causes (and possible solutions) I don’t think these are realistic outcomes to hope for, nor should they be anywhere near the first lines of defense- I think allowing students to have guns on college campuses is asinine, nor would I think arming the elderly residents of nursing homes to be a realistic idea. Much more carnage would result. Metal detectors, more cops on campus, anything- just keep the firearms away from the fratboy keg parties please.
The very first question which comes to mind with all of the different situations we both laid out- where did these cretins get their guns? Cho, despite being seriously unbalanced, was able to walk in and legally buy a killing machine with a 50 round clip (posing another question raised to me by a good-ol-gun-owning-boy- Who in the hell needs a 50 round clip for “defense” other than a cop or a soldier?).
The Safeway shooter was supposedly a gangbanger- how did he get his gun? I understand that if a person wants something badly enough there are ways to get anything, but most of these guys bought their guns legally, or bought them from someone else who bought them legally. I want laws to protect me by keeping guns out of their hands in the first place. I know this would be difficult, but I fault society (and the most powerful lobbying organization in the county) for not even trying.
Don’t tell me you (not you personally Wolverine) have the interests of the public in mind when you object to being required to have a trigger lock on your gun when/if you leave it unattended in your car- some laws regulating gun ownership don’t seem like unnecessary burdens but many (cough cough, Stone) say otherwise.
Are we supposed to trust that everyone intuitively knows proper handling of a handgun just because they have the money to buy one? I think the NRA has done a real disservice to public safety AND most regular gun owners by objecting to every gun regulation which has been brought to the table. Like the old guy asked me- Who in the hell needs a 50 round clip? Who in the hell goes hunting with an automatic weapon? (yea- I know about Ted)
The common ground that I find on this thread is the desire for the safety our families. Some arm themselves to accomplish this desire, while others feel their safety would be better served by having less guns in their daily lives. We all have the same end goal, which gives me hope.
Wolverine, I thank you for your reasoned tone and I look forward to our paths crossing someday.
Monk,
The question I had was geared towards the first time buyer of a handgun, not a CCP holder, which I understand does require classes and such. (I only hope the classes and training are as extensive as you suggest. If every gun owner took their responsibilities as seriously as you do and had half the knowledge you have displayed on this thread, we wouldn’t be having this discussion)
So my question is- is there any type of litmus test (training, questions or otherwise) a person should have to pass before being allowed to purchase a handgun?
For example- if a person can’t hit the side of a barn at close range with a handgun, should they be allowed to buy one? It doesn’t seem unreasonable to say, “Sorry. Here is a nice shotgun. Take a few classes on how to properly use a handgun and come back and see us.”
With your training I’m sure you have come across a few armed idiots- is there any reasonable way to keep guns out of (just a few would be an improvement) their hands.
True story- I walked into a neighbors house one afternoon and was greeted by the smell of gunpowder and the sight of a pissed off woman. The male resident of the house, a CWP holder and gun enthusiast was showing off his quick draw skills and had accidentally fired a round into the floor at the feet of the woman’s son- Does this guy really “need” to carry 3 guns. Does anybody “need” to carry 3 guns.
The question I’m sure you can see I’m circling is- is their any law regulating gun ownership you would be okay with and if so, what might be a prudent one?
(Um. Stone. I didn’t ask you, because I already know your answer- you just don’t get it)
At the end of the day most of us following this debate are looking out for our families in addition to the families of our neighbors – except for Stone. As he selfishly said in #44, we are on our own. He is only looking out for himself and his family, to hell with our families. (F*ck you too dude).
LL,
I can’t say I was expecting any worthy contribution to the conversation from you, but I must admit to being surprised by your accusation of sexism. When I asked you for a general idea of what compromises gun safety in your house, I didn’t expect an answer- mainly because I don’t think you have an answer, other than trust me. (and my husband, well, he knows his stuff)
I don’t trust you, so you’ll have to deal with me trying to insure the safely of my loved ones thru legislation. We don’t agree on much (er…anything), and I can see why you wouldn’t want to take the time to answer my broad question so I’ll pose an easier and more specific one- What precautions do you take to help insure a family member doesn’t use a gun against themselves?
I had a couple of teenage peers end their lives with firearms, in addition to a 12 year old cousin. We have one the highest rate of teen suicide in the world. The question is highly relevant and surely has been posed to you before.
Shoot- impress my with your preparation. Just don’t let that great memory of yours forget that I’m a gun owner too.
AFF…. As a few here know, I’m a big stickler for mental disorder screening on permits. If any part of the process should bear more scrutiny…that is the part I’d push for. Few also know that I had a niece at VT, and we tried for a number of hours to contact her. She was fine, BTW.
But, alas…we live in a society that has not yet devised a way to look into a man’s soul. We also are doing a bang-up job of giving our kids everything, leaving expectations miles and miles high, frustrations towering anytime their immature needs aren’t met instantly.
In short, we’re not raising adults anymore.
I know 30 year old kids in men’s bodies.
THAT may well be why we have an increase in “the fumbles”.
I could get into my beliefs regarding mandatory two year service in the armed forces to get that training you speak of (ala Israel), but that probably wouldn’t seat well with you either.
AFF — As best I can recall, the Safeway shooting was the result of a love triangle rather than being strictly a gang affair. In fact, if I am not misremembering, I believe the second victim (the new boyfriend) was non-Hispanic. I do not remember where the shooter got his piece — probably black market.
Talk about something hitting home. My better half knew both the shooter and the dead girl. Now, my better half has been to many not very nice places with me and seen a lot of what I’ve seen. She, in fact, sometimes covered my back on some mean streets. But when we first received news of that Safeway shooting, she was in personal shock. This from someone who grew up in a time and place where you were practically born with a shooting iron in your hand.
Sad, sad, sad. In the “old days” we used to come home from abroad to enjoy a peaceful , restful time in the USA. Now we seem at times to live in a sort of battlefield in our own hometown. You cannot even live in a North Carolina nursing home at age 98 and escape it. I can relate to just about everyone on this thread — you, Stone, Monk, Loudoun Lady, and the others. We may come at this thing from different directions, but we do have one thing in common: we live in a crazy time under some crazy pressures; and we are all looking for answers.
Wolv and BPM can continue to engage you AFF. Personally I think you are a lost cause and a bore. I will take care of my family and you can take care of yours, although some of the information you have revealed here leaves one scratching their head, because in our house we lock our cars. I also take my purse out of the car, I learned that in Jr. HS. Preventing tragedy and crime starts with the little things, so if you don’t have the common sense to lock your car I’m not sure you are going to comprehend safety on a variety of other issues.
When your car is stolen, or a purse or Ipod or other valuable is lifted you will get a nice little lecture from the Sheriff. Perhaps this has already happened and it didn’t sink in, which would not surprise me. Prevention comes in all forms, so please remember to lock your doors in your home too, or did you not know that either? I learned that in elementary school.
More info about the Lansdowne home invasion robbery at the local news websites. Very disturbing trend between the Lansdowne beating death/assault, the Leesburg murder, and the Lansdowne home invasion.
BM, I am totally with you on two years of service after high school graduation.
So my question is- is there any type of litmus test (training, questions or otherwise) a person should have to pass before being allowed to purchase a handgun?
NO !
The constitution does not have a litmus test. I know some simply want to ignore the 2 nd amendment however, it exists. You don’t have to like it but you do have to acknowledge it exists.
“True story- I walked into a neighbors house one afternoon and was greeted by the smell of gunpowder and the sight of a pissed off woman. The male resident of the house, a CWP holder and gun enthusiast was showing off his quick draw skills and had accidentally fired a round into the floor at the feet of the woman’s son- Does this guy really “need” to carry 3 guns. Does anybody “need” to carry 3 guns.”
Your friend is a nit wit. There are nit wits in the world, stay alert.
The only one qualified to determine how many guns I “need” is me. It is none of your business or the business of the state to interject yourself(s) into the process of determining my needs for anything, most notably those things specifically enumerated as a right.
I am sorry that freedom scares you so.
Nitwit isn’t a strong enough word. Anyone who practices quick draw with a loaded piece in a room with others present ought to be a candidate for a visit by the proverbial guys in white coats. Not just limited to private gun owners either. I recently read about a police officer — in California, I believe — who was killed accidentally when one of his buddies was showing off with his weapon inside the jail building.
I recall a time on a military range in rifle training as a very young man when I was so elated by a very good cluster that I momentarily took my hand off the rifle. For some reason the rifle started to turn sideways on its swivel. I got a reaming out from the presiding non-com that I have not forgotten in all the decades since. Monk and edmundburkenator may be spot on about some obligatory years of service. All of us could use a period in our lives when we have to learn some hard and rather embarrassing lessons about real life.
Wolverine, I got a similar reaming when I used to shoot competitively. My dad had zero tolerance for anything but complete focus when a gun was in your possession.
Monk,
I would agree that mental health screening would be an excellent way to start cracking down on loonies with firearms. I would further agree with your assessment of our current youth- entitled, immature..I believe you penned a piece on your blog a few months back- as I had recently spent some time on a college campus it struck a cord with me.
I would go one step further in my criticism, as it’s not just the young who seem to have forgotten that wealth is accumulated through hard work
I’d have no problem with some sort of national service requirement (although modeling it on Israel might be putting a square peg in a round hole). From my conversations with top brass they are very happy with an all volunteer army and wouldn’t want the burden of dealing with yoyo’s who didn’t want to be there (not to mention the cost of training said yoyos)
Perhaps some form of an Americorp option? Which of course would be difficult (and very costly) to implement (I don’t like wasting tax dollars either)
We are closer to agreeing on this topic than you imagined- How about a requirement of 1000 hours of community service before one can get a VA drivers license or a learners permit?
Um. Stone- not a friend, but certainly a nitwit. A well armed CWP holding neighboring nitwit- a poster child for sensible gun laws, and an NRA member to boot. He almost killed his stepson, who went on to do a tour in Iraq.
I’m sure he believes, as you seem to, that any laws regulating any weapon are an infringement on his rights. I would assume, the intentional nuance penned by our founding fathers in the Constitution is lost on him too.
Good luck buying that rocket propelled grenade at Purcellville Guns.
” the intentional nuance penned by our founding fathers in the Constitution is lost on him too. ”
Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Not a lot of nuance here. If only we would learn to read the lines as they were written, the documents authored by and the public statements uttered by the framers leading up to the inception of the constitution, we would be much better off as a nation. Chasing penumbras is how we got where we are today.
AFF — You’re probably very right when you cited the opinions of those top brass guys on obilgatory service. Can’t forget that time at Cua Viet when some Marine objected to being anywhere near a battle zone — especially a place where the RPG’s and mortars from the DMZ paid a visit every day — and went around with a peace symbol painted on the front of his helmet. I don’t think his CO was very happy having to deal with that guy. (Those were the days when some people got drafted into the USMC.)
Maybe we can find something in between which will serve to give young people a strong sense of reason and responsibility. The military for those who want it. National Guard perhaps? Some other work experience for those who don’t. Either way, however, I fear we would have to endure a whole lot of jabbering and complaining about civil rights and personal liberty.
Any type of mandatory public service, military or civilian, would result in the same inequities as the draft: the privileged and well-connected would still find a way to get out of the obligation. I remember in college in England, years ago, one of my fellow students, an Isreali girl, announced she would be leaving at the end of the week. She had been called to report immediately to serve her time in her country’s military. This was mid-term and she said there were no exemptions.
G, what do you define as “arms”. Do you draw a line somewhere?
Stone- Not everyone has the ability to see color either.
I’m sure others have pointed out to you that the Oxford English dictionary defines the term “to bear arms” as- “to serve as a soldier, do military service, fight” going back to about 1300AD
Besides, what are arms? …. and there’s the pesky “well regulated militia” part.
Thankfully, the interpretation of the Bill of Rights will be left to those who have spent a lifetime looking for the nuances in what to many, merely looks black and white.
Wolverine- Surely there would be some whining and expensive legal wrangling, but the more I think about a national service requirement the more I come back to the cost of implementation.
“Thankfully, the interpretation of the Bill of Rights will be left to those who have spent a lifetime looking for the nuances in what to many, merely looks black and white.”
Two words- Heller Decision.
“Besides, what are arms? …. and there’s the pesky “well regulated militia” part. ”
Get yourself a copy of the Federalist Papers.
Your a member of that well regulated militia.
AFF, the original meaning of the well regulated militia referred to all able bodied citizens.
“G, what do you define as “arms”. Do you draw a line somewhere?”
- edmundburkenator
Now comes the part where you tell me I can’t have an ICBM in my backyard.
I define “arms” the same way the founders did. Those “arms” carried by a human being for the purposes of defending himself.
Almost all members of the militia provided their own personal firearms. These firearms were usually of better quality than those issued to soldiers of the time.
Save me the speech about grenade launchers and tanks in the driveway. Its silly.
AFF — No doubt the cost would be heavy, but it may be a cost we really need to bear. I have several relatives and friends with long teaching records at the high school and junior high school levels. They tell me I would be amazed at the negative plummet in respect and attitudes among today’s students. The number of those students one would consider to be respectful, studious, and serious about their academics appears to be sadly diminishing. Moreover, it seems not to make a great deal of difference whether the school is in a poorer district or a wealthy one. Nor is this limited to particular ethnicities. Teachers as a group seem to be getting rather frustrated by the changing ratio of discipline time vs teaching time. I don’t like taxes any better than the next guy, but we have got to change this somehow.