You knew I’d go there….
It’s a legitimate question, what do you think? Hear me out for a minute…
On one hand we have Dede Scozzafava: a ten year State Assemblywoman, and previous Mayor, who had years of legislative experience. She had a record, tangible votes that she cast. She had to deal with REAL issues, and knew her district and the issues her constituents cared about.
On the other hand we have Doug Hoffman, has no record, no public experience. He could easily run as whatever he wanted to be, because he didn’t have anything to be attacked on.
I think there is no arguing that Hoffman was more conservative than Scozzafava, and as I mentioned earlier I donated money to Doug’s campaign. The issue I have is the horrible precedent it sets of certain national leaders getting involved and rallying the base against “moderate” Republicans. If it had been Dede vs. Owens we would have won that seat and had another vote for John Boehner in Congress today. Instead we have Nancy Pelosi’s hand-picked choice(Owens), and pushed out a 20+ year loyal Republican.
I know principle must matter in elections, but so must someone’s life, record, electability, and experience. I do not stand by her endorsing the Democrat, but when her decades of experience and care for her district were distorted and her image ruined in the district within a matter of weeks, how else could she feel? She felt abandoned, and maybe rightfully so. She had spent her life working for the citizens of upstate New York, and this is her payback? Please take a moment to reflect on the situation if you were in it.
I don’t ask y’all to stand by her decision. I don’t ask y’all to stand by her principles. But I do ask y’all to understand her situation. I am not a “it’s better to have a liberal Democrat, than a ’squishy, moderate’ Republican” type of person. I’d prefer to see a Republican in Congress any day voting for our leadership than a Democrat standing with Nancy Pelosi.
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Nov 05th by Too Conservative
You’re kidding right? She was NO Republican…in fact to the left of Owens. If she had won it would have been impossible to get her out too. At least now, we can take a shot back at this seat right way with a decent GOP candidate.
Gnarly, how can you say she was “NO Republican” after she spent 20 years as a Republican in Albany and in her hometown?
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Why, after all of the damage that’s been done to the Republican brand over the last couple of years, would anyone claim to be a Republican if they weren’t? So far, all I’ve heard about Scozzafava is she was endorsed by ACORN, a handful of unions and Daily Kos. What’s in her voting record? How often did she vote with the leadership in Albany?
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Hoffman didn’t even live in the district!
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Other than the one time I saw Hoffman on Fox News (and he sounded like a Ron Paulite), I never saw a single interview with Scozzafava or any kind of in-depth reviews of her actual stances on anything or her historical voting record. No one was even paying attention to this race until Palin endorsed Hoffman.
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I don’t think Scozzafava got a fair shake, and we lost the seat because of it. Whose to say that we’ll be able to get rid of Owens any easier than we could have gotten rid of her had she been elected?
Scozzafava was a poor candidate for a special election, which draws more attention since it stands alone. The views had don’t make much of a difference as a state legislator matter more in Congress.
It’s only one vote. And conservatives are more inspired after the NY 23 campaign to win future votes.
the NRCC vows (now)to stay out of local politics & candidate selection. as a “localist”, i might applaud that decision. But sometimes the NRCC is in a better position to see polls, trends, fundraising etc that would help choose the ultimate strongest Republican candidate.
So while I’m not commenting on the NY-23 specifically, I will say that the NRCC needs to pay closer attention to policy. An endorsement by ACORN should have been a red flag.
Brian, you seem to be going back and forth on this one. Wasn’t it you who admitted “you guys were right about her” the day after she endorsed the Democrat in that race? That implies that she found his stances on all of the various issues of the day – healthcare, the war, the economy, energy, taxation – to be superior, taken in the aggregate, than Hoffman’s. Does that action not say anything to you about her own positions? I find it very difficult to consider that she “didn’t get a fair shake” given that endorsement. She was in total control of that action and decided it was the best course of action. That doesn’t say “good Republican” to me.
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We can discuss the merits of the precedent set by the Hoffman challenge but the notion that Scozzafava was somehow improperly vilified doesn’t hold up under the scrutiny of her own actions.
a news site I visit: patriotroom.com, says that 4 Va Dem Cong will vote “no” on Pelosicare tomorrow (in light of Tues. election). I don’t know of which/whom they are speaking.
I’m glad you mentioned in your post that Scozzafava’s record and positions were distorted. I know that won’t matter to some. But, to the more fair minded, the fact that so many are jumping to conclusions based on things that are widely believed but are simply not true may matter a great deal.
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In any discussion of “lessons learned” going forward it is kinda important that your after action report contain facts rather than widely accepted BS.
I’m still waiting to hear which of her positions were “distorted.”
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TC, I can’t help but feel that in spite of your assurances that you aren’t asking us to stand by her decisions in this race that such embrace is the only proof you’ll accept that we “understand her position.” You say she would have represented another vote for John Boehner and you imply that’s true because she’s a member of the New York Republican Party. You mean like Arlen Specter was a Boehner vote? Scozzafava being a Republican means very little if she would vote with the Democrats on a variety of issues of concern to conservatives. Were they to just ignore all of that and send someone to represent them who would vote against what they wanted done? They wouldn’t support Owens in that race because of his likelihood of voting in favor of the Democrat positions on those matters, for what purpose were they supposed to have supported Scozzafava if she’d vote the same way?
In the aftermath of the tradgedy that was Spector….how on earth can anyone endorse a “republican” that was already endorsed by ACORN and the Unions?
She was a sure-fired repeat of Spector waiting to happen. She did not represent the masses or the Republican viewpoint. We’re better to have lost the seat and come out as real republican colors (with a candidate who has a history and a verifiable track record) to see how that does.
Dede was a Liberal and she endorsed the Democrat after her funding and support dried up. The Democrats can have her.
Brian, Good Luck with your spin – you must be pretty dizzy. You seem to bend with wind on the NY23 race, consistency had its advantages.
KIV, I need to check out patriot room, which 4?
BTW, Fimian is running against the lowly toad Connelly.
Other LL, if you are reading: http://www.keithfimian.com
If you can name for me even a single issue before the House of Representatives on which a moderate/liberal Republican would have voted with the Republican minority rather than the Democratic majority and I’d consider it possible that a non-conservative would be worthy of support in a district where a conservative could not win.
For Olympia Snowe, the occassional vote with the Republicans comes along (such as threatening to filibuster the healthcare bill if it includes a public option), a Democratic alternative would not offer such a hope, and we run a relatively low chance of winning Maine’s senate seats with a true conservative. Hence, Olympia Snowe is tolerable.
Dede Scozzafava offered little to no such hope.
She wouldn’t have voted with us on healthcare. She wouldn’t have voted with us on cap & trade. She wouldn’t have voted with us on taxes. Hell, she wouldn’t even have voted with us on card check. So far as I can tell, she is and was utterly worthless as a Republican.
Moreover, her one seat is utterly meaningless toward voting for a Republican Speaker of the House, so even that argument doesn’t wash.
And worst of all, New York 23 is perfectly capabable of electing a more reliable Republican vote.
I see absolutely no upside to supporting Scozzafava or retaining her in the party. None.
Pray tell, what, precisely , would the party stand to gain?
Of course, all of this presumes that the party brand is supposed to MEAN SOMETHING. I find it profoundly ironic that moderates such as Brian above consider the damage to our party brand to arise because we boot liberals like Scozzafava from our party. No, the damage to our party brand comes when we continue to permit liberals like Scozzafava to dilute and poison our brand as a principled conservative party whose party label has an actual MEANING.
The Republican party brand is in relatively good shape when voters – both Republican, Democratic, and Independent – can rely that voting for a Republican is something of a basic contract: you know what you’re getting. A Republican isn’t going to raise your taxes. A Republican isn’t going to spend like a drunken sailor. A Republican isn’t going to use government funds for abortions. You know… basic stuff. If you want to vote for a politician that was going to raise your taxes, spend like a drunken sailor, and federally fund abortion, you typically have a Democratic candidate you can select on the same ballot. Not all Republicans are alike and may disagree with one another and represent wildly different districts, but there are some basic things you know you’re getting as a voter when you vote for one.
The severe damage to the Republican brand in the past decade did not arise because we are looking to toss liberals from the party, but precisely because we’ve promised one thing and delivered another. It is precisely because we’ve permitted liberals – and other drunken sailor spenders and false conservatives – to pollute our party’s brand, its message, and how our party is perceived as a governing party.
The solution is most certainly NOT to keep “Republicans” like Scozzafava around, but yes to purge them and hence clarify what it means to be a Republican into some concrete and commonly shared principles. This need not be all-encompasing (that would be self-defeating), but we must as a coalition at least hold SOMETHING in common (and be disciplined with maintaining it) for our brand to have ANY meaning to the voter.
I’d consider keeping Snowe. I’d keep Mike Castle of Delaware. I’d keep Tom Davis. I’d keep a lot of moderates. We need them, whether we want to admit it or not.
The likes of Scozzafava and Schwarzenager, however, who are not moderates, but LIBERALS, are toxins our party can do without.
You are assuming that she would have gotten all of Hoffman’s votes. She is pro-abortion & pro-gay marriage. She supported the “stimulus” bill. She has voted to increase taxes many times in past. So she is neither a social conservative or an economic conservative. Newt Gingrich felt it was necessary to get her to pledge to vote for Cong. Boehner for Speaker before he endorsed her. How often do you have to ask a GOP candidate if they will vote for the Republican candidate for Speaker. The only reason anyone ever gives to vote for her is because she had a “R” next to her name but we saw how long that lasted. It is one thing for her not to endorse Hoffman but to endorse Owens is unforgivable.
Recovering Moderate….that is the most excellent wrap-up of the outlook I’ve ever seen. Great job!!
For Christs sake stop the naval gazing. She was a leftist who for whatever local reason was in the wrong party and in NO WAY represented any aspect of being a Republican which is a center right party. In general it is a conservative party. She was not even in the same zip code, she had to go.
So what of Republicans who are truly fiscal conservatives who believe in balanced budgets and controlling the growth of spending (something we rarely get in practice from “real conservative” Republicans when they are in power) but who differ with you about the efficacy of government stimulus to the economy when demand has dried up in other sectors and we are in a deep recession?
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What of Republicans who believe abortion is a great moral wrong and who give money to agencies that promote and assist with adoptions and who support places that take young pregnant women in and see to their medical and other needs so that those children can be born healthy and adopted out but who don’t believe that big government should be the arbiter of how those young women handle that decision?
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What about Republicans who believe in a strong national defense but who think the concept of preemptive war is both radical and wrong? And who believe that practices that our law has considered torture for over a century and for which we have prosecuted both those who did them to our guys and our own guys for doing them to others are not practices we should be engaging in?
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These are the people who are so derisively called RINOs. These are the people who are being made to feel increasingly unwelcome in the Republican Party. These are the people that some very silly folks are calling leftists. These are the people the idiot chairman of the RNC says you are going to “go after”. In some cases they have labored their entire adult lives for the Republican Party.
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And you think driving these people from your party is the way to future electoral success? I believe the Democratic Party will be happy to take all you can drive away.
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For many years the Democratic majority in Congress included the entire political spectrum from very liberal to very conservative. It appears that we may be about to repeat such a period.
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Go ahead. Throw out anyone who doesn’t swear fealty to every position of the lunatic fringe. Ideological purity above all else! Stamp out any disagreement or dissent! Punish the heretics!
Dan, Please take note for the umptenth time – we don’t want your advice on our party. We are coming out of years of a fog because we (not me, but the powers that be) listened to you and people like Brian. We stopped that nonsense and and are doing quite well. Don’t you have problems in your own party to cater to?
Recovering Moderate, good comments. There is much to be discussed about people like Snowe and Tom Davis, but your points are well taken.
Loudoun Lady, forget the powers that be. There are plenty of rank and file Republicans who fit the description I painted above. And those folks are hardly “liberals”. You are thumbing your nose at them not the “leadership”. In case you hadn’t noticed, the “leadership” is busy pandering to the fringe elements of the party (I use the term fringe purposefully because the people they are pandering to certainly can’t be accurately described as having mainstream conservative views).
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Knock yourself out. Keep shrinking the party.
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Thank you.
any one that’s been a loyal and a hard worker in the republican party has watched this sort of thing happen time and again. Especially if female I can point you to states that have turned blue by trying to conntrol but its still red v’s blue and republicans can make a difference she was wrong to shove votes but all know that’s get even shame on all of you we ate a blue state over this kind of crap and now the voters are beginning to see just how dangerous the dems are but they are changing our hole country you want to be a third world country that’s where socialism will put us
Dan, Not sure where you get your numbers from, but in Loudoun and Fairfax the Committee numbers are up, up and away. When national polling tells us the number of people that identify themselves as “conservative” outnumbers those that claim “r” or “d” – I call that a clue. No one is shrinking anything except your head.
Again, for the 698th time – your opinion mean nada to us, but we invite you to mouth off to your own party. They need help.
Here’s the thing about Scozzafava that I think really infuriated everyone . . . the manner in which she was nominated. No actually Republican votere got a say so I feel anyone who abandoned her had a perfect right too because the local party honchos abandoned them.
When I saw that Owens won, I shrugged and thought to myself “it had to be done.” Dede couldn’t even promise she that she wouldn’t change parties. Also, had she been elected she would have given Pelosi and Obama another name they could use to say their agenda was “bipartisan.”
And lets not mess around that Scozzafava was a “moderate.” This woman is a liberal, no matter what her party is. She was endorsed by the Daily Kos by being the most liberal in the race. At some point you have to take a stand, and any liberal who wants to debate this with me I’ve got two words for you: Joe. Lieberman.
This is not to say there isn’t room for moderates – Castle and Kirk are perfect examples. But a good conservative can be elected rather easily from NY-23, and it was the right thing to make this stand. I mean, you say stay with Dede . . . the way she votes and the way Owens will vote isn’t that different so given the choice, I perfer that we take a stand, take shrot-term hit for the greater good.
Chris…I think the NRCC shot themselves in the foot and will be recovering for the forseeable future.
LL, “doing quite well?” If you think being a minority in the House and Senate and not controlling the White House is “doing quite well” then it’s hard for me to argue with you. It was candidates listening to folks like me that won us elections in 1994 and 2000, and just won us these elections in VA.
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Moderates did not cost us the House and Senate. Moderates did not cost us the White House. If that’s what you think, you’re giving Howard Zinn a run for his money when it comes to revisionist history.
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If my posts about Scozzafava seem inconsistent, that’s primarily because I’m still trying to make up my mind about her. On one hand, I hate the fact that she endorsed the Democrat even if I can understand why she did it. As I’ve been pretty clear about, I place party over ideology. I know many don’t do that. That’s fine. On the other hand, as I look back over her history, I feel like she was never given a real chance to defend herself. The only thing anybody here ever says is that she was endorsed by ACORN, the unions and Daily Kos, and that she voted for tax increases. That doesn’t necessarily mean she’s a liberal or she’s not a fiscal conservative. Plenty of “fiscal conservatives” voted for the TARP bailout. Plenty of fiscal conservatives have voted for tax increases, and some fiscal conservative Presidents have signed them (like the elder Bush, and it cost him his job).
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Like I said, the more I learn about her, the more I think she got railroaded. I still don’t approve of her endorsing Owens. And I still don’t know what to think about Hoffman, other than the fact that he looks and sounds creepy.
Chris, while I agree with you that the nomination process up there for a short notice special election was hardly ideal, it is not correct to say that Republican voters had no say in the process. Presumably, those Republican voters elected the eleven county chairmen who made the selection. And those same Republican voters had a say in drafting and approving party rules under which those chairs were elected and which called for this nomination process.
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There was nothing undemocratic about this process and the nomination wasn’t hijacked from the Republican voters. The hijacking was conducted by national figures trying to advance their own personal agendas.
She endorsed the Democrat because he was actually from the district and understood local issues, something very important in a local race, while Hoffmann was clueless.
If the Kos Kidz and the Huffington Post bused in some out-of-state leftist to run on the Green Party ticket, and forced the actual Democrat out of the race, I’d vote for the Republican who was actually from the district. It’s not that hard to understand.
[...] Posted by Not Jim Moran under 2009, NY 23 Leave a Comment Interesting write up by Too Conservative. [...]
This is why, btw, I said I would vote for McDonnell over Terry MacAuliffe if he had been the nominee. Terry was a carpet bagger who didn’t understand the state, and Hoffmann was a carpet bagger who didn’t understand NY-23.
Brian, I don’t know if anyone has told you this yet, but I’m sure they have. Doug used to live in the district, he spent his whole life there until he was redistricted/gerrymandered out of it. Almost all of his business operations are in the 23rd. He wasn’t a carpetbagging outsider. It’s the people like Dede and people like yourself that want a left leaning GOP that are driving us into the dirt.
Brian: “It was candidates listening to folks like me that won us elections in 1994 and 2000, and just won us these elections in VA.”
What the hell are you talking about? You are the reason we lost in 2008 (McCain disaster) and the reason the party is going through a rejuvenation. Inviting liberals (or as you call them moderates – wtf??) into our party got us a minority, not Dede stinkin Scozzafavva. Stop revising Brian. 2 seats in special elections while we are climbing out of the fog is small potatos in the long run, remember the war analogy I used?
I can’t argue with upside down logic anymore. It really is getting ridiculous.
“He wasn’t a carpetbagging outsider.”
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He was, he didn’t understand local issues and all his big supporters (Dick Armey, Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck) were ALL outsiders. But by all means, not-liberal Dan, keep it up. Take down Charlie Crist next, please! And Fiorina in Cali. That’d be awesome.
Shorter LL:
“The way to get more people from a certain political party elected to office is to make the party smaller!”
Brian, did you see Sen. DeMint’s comments regarding Sen. Cornyn’s recruiting efforts at the NRSC?
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“He’s trying to find candidates who can win. I’m trying to find people who can help me change the Senate.”
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Imagine the audacity of the NRSC chair trying to find candidates who can win elections? Sen. DeMint obviously prefers a permanent minority that represents one end of the political spectrum to ever being in the majority.
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“To think we can grow the party by picking people who are more liberal and don’t share our core values doesn’t make any sense.”
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Obviously it has never occurred to Sen. DeMint that the current size of the Republican Party may be a reflection of how many Americans share his views. The man honestly believes that in a country that has always played it down the middle and where most voters are not highly ideological that you can build a working majority at one of the extremes of the political spectrum.
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I suppose we can look for Sen. Cornyn to be called a liberal and a RINO any day now. Witch hunts are an ugly thing. And it takes time for them to fade away. They are impervious to reason.
Dan, they’re already painting Newt Gingrich (!) as too moderate(!!)
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The modern conservative sure likes to accuse their opponents of being Marxists, but they’re the ones undertaking a Soviet-esque purge right now.
RichmondDem, I wonder how many of the Bachmaniacs babbling about socialism and listening to Akin imply that the Pledge of Allegiance belonged only to them know that the pledge was written by a socialist? I would say it might make their heads explode except they simply ignore any facts that contradict their preconceived notions. So, no problem.
RichmondDem, they are already gunning for Fiorina in California and supporting DeVore. I don’t think that one matters too much because neither of them has much chance against Boxer. Fiorina has some baggage anyway and I understand she, like Meg Whitman, may have had trouble actually going out and voting consistently in the past. I wouldn’t vote for a candidate who couldn’t bother herself with the basic duties of citizenship either.
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Crist is a different story. He is a conservative to anyone anywhere close to the center politically. I know, I know! To the wingers he is a liberal. And, Horrors!, he may be a homosexual. But the guy could win Florida and he can raise money like crazy. So having the extremists target him could result in a Dem pickup.
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Rubio is no slouch. He could win Florida too. But it would be a steeper climb for Rubio, so the torch and pitchfork crowd going after Crist would be doing the Democrats a huge favor.
RD, Our party is getting smaller? Where are your numbers? Our local party is growing, as are surrRunding jurisdictions. A republican just won is New Jersey. Is your local or state party growing? Please share.
I can’t handle when people say conservatives are the reason Republicans are in this shape. The only people to stay with McCain ARE conservatives because of they a) understood Obama’s real agenda b) loved Sarah Palin, and c) trusted McCain on foriegn affairs. For all the bluster GOPers were given about McCain winning independents and moderates . . . they ALL went to Obama. But this wee, when Virginia Republicans run the most conservative ticekt we’ve ever had, WE win all the indys and moderates. Hmmmmm . . .
When we back moderates where we don’t have too, we water down the brand. Who wants a half-Democrat when you can just vote for a full one? In places like NY-23, the FL-Sen, in MD-1, and SC-4 we can make a stand.
Loudoun Lady, far be it from me to disabuse you of the notion that you are on the right track (no pun intended) to build a national majority. Please proceed. You and Sen. DeMint are absolutely correct and guys like Brian and Sen. Cornyn are completely misguided.
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It is unfortunate for you that Sen. DeMint is not the Chairman of the NRSC. I believe if he were, Sen. DeMint could equal the fine record of Sen. Ensign as NRSC Chair. One could only hope.
“RD, Our party is getting smaller?”
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The number of people who identify themselves as Republicans is near an all-time low (something like 21% of the country). Chris Christie, who won in New Jersey, is pro-choice and for gay civil unions. And for cap and trade. I guess you want him to leave the party, right, LL?
Chris–
McDonnell won by running away from the right. He didn’t babble on about ACORN and “socialism” and abortion and engage in gay-bashing (despite his past). He talked about bread-and-butter state issues.
LL, McCain may have been a moderate before he ran in 2008, but he didn’t run as a moderate. He ran as a conservative, and that meant that no one – not moderates who didn’t like his veer to the right, and not conservatives who knew he was just putting on an act – trusted him for a minute. Had McCain simply run as who he was instead of trying to be all things to all people, he may have had a shot at losing by a smaller margin. But he would have lost regardless. No one, not even Ronald Reagan, could have beat Obama under the circumstances we saw in 2008.
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You’re simply ignoring history because it doesn’t fit your philosophy. Newt Gingrich himself wrote “I was elected Speaker because a number of moderates voted for me. They gave us control of the House for the first time in forty years, allowing us to balance the federal budget, cut taxes and reform welfare for America.” Without moderates in the party (liberals, in your parlance I suppose) there would have been no Republican Revolution. A seat is a seat, and giving up 2 seats is still giving up 2 seats. You think we win wars by giving up territory for no reason?
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The Democrats figured out that you can win with moderates and that’s how they beat us in 2006.
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Chris, the ticket may have been “the most conservative” in Virginia, but it didn’t run as the “most conservative.” If they had done that, they’d have scared off the same moderates and independents that turned out to give us the win.
Chris, you gotta be kidding! SC-4? You want to target Bob Inglis as a liberal? Inglis is about as conservative as they come. He isn’t a fire breathing lunatic which is so popular now, but he is a solid conservative. He reflects upstate South Carolina very well.
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He also reflects traditional Southern manners and civility. His greatest offense to the nut jobs in your party seems to be that he quite properly told that nitwit Joe Wilson that he should apologize for his behavior during the president’s address to Congress. If you want to primary this guy it has nothing to do with ideology. Talk about letting the lunatics drive the bus! You want to primary a VERY conservative Congressman because he is civil and was raised properly and has some manners and a sense of decorum?
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You have already booted NY-23.
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Florida you will be more difficult with Rubio, but not impossible. Be my guest.
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The Eastern Shore is conservative. Nominating a conservative Republican there makes sense. But are you forgetting that you primaried a moderate conservative Republican out in MD-1 in favor of a hardliner and lost the seat to the Democrat in the general election? You may be misreading the Eastern Shore if you think you need to go hard right again. It ain’t Georgia.
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But the 4th District of South Carolina? Bob Inglis? This really is a witch hunt. That is just plain nuts!
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If Bob Inglis isn’t conservative enough for you then you aren’t likely to win a majority in this country for a generation.
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The guy even had the integrity to keep his word and only serve three terms the first time he held the seat. Unlike so many of those Contract with America liars who didn’t keep their word.
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I guess civility and integrity are no longer in vogue with the folks who are driving that bus of yours into the ditch.
Inglish too huh? So the new definition of “conservative” is “do you support Glenn Beck?
Keep it up, Bolsheviks! Stalin would be proud of your purge!
Bob Inglis has a lifetime rating of 84 from the American Conservative Union. That’s a RINO?
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113096597
Ready to step back in locally…happy with what I am seeing, finally.
So of course I start off on a national race.
Here’s what I see:
1. Backroom nomination process – so no one in the district outside of the 11 county chairs really had any say in this whatsoever. That is a recipe for disaster (it also cost us in the 20th earlier, as a primary would probably would have ensued in Congressman John Faso). I do understand it’s the law; that needs to be changed – everywhere. Primaries are the surest way of keeping people engaged in a party (look what it did for the Dems nationally in 2008!)
2. Part of Lake Placid is in the 23rd, part in the 20th – Hoffman was born in the district and had his businesses there. They moved the district on him, not the other way around. Clearly, he is not an outsider. On the other hand, it’s equally clear most of his support was from outside, and I can tell you from spending a lifetime up there a decade ago that is bad news. It’s probably similar almost everywhere, but the Yankees of Upstate NY don’t want a bunch of Southerners telling them how to vote.
3. Scozzafava took herself out of the party. As has been noted numerous times above, she did not fit with national Republicans on just about every issue; in the NY Assembly, where Republicans face an overwhelming minority, she was only barely to the left of the state party, but in Congress she would easily have been the most liberal Republican…I could argue even old time Republican liberals like Sherry Boehlert and Ben Gilman would have voted against the stimulus because they were always deficit hawks. She’s not a moderate. When she saw she couldn’t win, she quit. Not the mark of a leader.
4. Strategy. Now that I made the moderates mad, I’m going to do the same to conservatives. It would have been smarter to let Scozzafava win this time and then let Hoffman beat her heads up in a primary next year. Would have been a smarter use of resources and capital. My guess is Scozzafava would, in the interim, have built a fairly conservative voting record to try to avoid losing, so it would have been win-win.
5. Brian, I love ya man, but our party has to stand for *something*. I think we probably agree 99.9% of the time who should be in the tent and who shouldn’t, but this is one case where someone clearly didn’t belong. We lost control of Congress for several reasons, but one of them was the runaway spending (lots of blame to go around) in an attempt to look “moderate.” I think we’re best off portraying ourselves as pro-freedom, which means reducing the role of government on all fronts and making the part that is left good, efficient, and non-corrupt. I think McDonnell and Christie both captured that…they’re both pretty conservative…but folks are only scared by “conservative” when it is attached to failure (Katrina, the post-war plan) and perceived intolerance (I know I’m going to catch it for that, but oh well). Even Cooch did a good job running that way, and I would not be surprised if the AG office runs effectively as well.
Brian, You stand with Dede and Arlen – fighting for the left wing of the Republican Party! Stand Pround my friend, and sit down occassionally because the spin has gotten to your head……… McCain ran as a conservative everyone…….supporting 787 billion in bailout money – by George I think I’ve got it. Being a “moderate” (ahem… liberal) and voting with Liberals (still liberals) is…. conservative!
Thanks for clearing that up Brian.
That is just amazing! If Barry Goldwater was still alive they’d target him on their RINO hunt.
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Brian, I feel for you and all the other sane Republicans who are trying to build a party up.
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They aren’t just calling moderates liberals and calling fringe extremists conservatives. They are targeting guys with ratings of 84 from the ACU as RINOs and looking to purge them. This truly rises to the level of insanity.
Good try Dan, comparing Arlen Specter and Barry Goldwater is utter nonsense. The only one babbling about Inglis is you and RD – wow!
Why don’t you and RD go out for a beer and come up with a plan for your own party, because the Democratic Party of VA is kaput. Better yet, keep yapping here because we want you permanently distracted.
“.supporting 787 billion in bailout money”
Bobby Scott voted against the bailout–does that make him a conservative now?
Yes, McCain is a liberal! The fact that he has a solidly conservative voting record in the House and Senate that spans more than a quarter century is just a ruse. He may even be a socialist! He is up for re-election next year. Better run a “real” conservative against him in the primary.
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McCain was probably recruited into his communist party cell by that known Marxist, Barry Goldwater! They are both from Arizona you know! A hotbed of lefties! And Goldwater held the Senate seat before McCain did! Probably both commies!
LL, wrong again. Chris was the one who said “we should make a stand in SC-4″, Bob Inglis’s district. Bob Inglis, with a lifetime rating of 84 from the ACU–but I guess that doesn’t matter, since he said he doesn’t like Glenn Beck he MUST be a RINO! Purge! Purge the traitor!
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“the Democratic Party of VA is kaput”
Ahahahha. No.
If y’all keep going down this road, I have a feeling in 2012 there are going to be two right wing candidates–the Republican nominee, who won’t be “conservative” enough for the Teabaggers, and a Teabagger Party with Palin or DeMint as the nominee. This of course means 500EVs for the Persident.
I don’t even know who Chris is, but I’ll look at it. RD, Keep on chirping, no one is listening to the Teabagger comments because we don’t care what you think. Is that clear enough?
More importantly, read about the collapse of your own party:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/05/AR2009110504334.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
Chuckie Krauthhammer? For election analysis? Really, LL?
Settle down Dan. McCain is a moderate that ran as a moderate (and voted as a liberal on the stimulus), I was responding to Brian saying he ran as a Conservative. He did not and your Marxist rant is duly noted.
You and RD need a downer today, are you coming off a post-election, red bull induced hangover??
Loudoun Lady, actually it was Chris who brought up targeting South Carolina’s Fourth Congressional District in the Great RINO Hunt.
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I merely pointed out what utter lunacy that was since Bob Inglis is one of the most conservative members of the House of Representatives. RD merely provided links to verify that fact.
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I can understand that if you think purging someone like Bob Inglis makes any sense whatsoever you would regard the presentation of objective facts (like his American Conservative Union rating) as babbling. In the reality based community we call that supporting your argument by citing sources of information.
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Oh, and I have heard RINO hunters refer to Barry Goldwater as a “liberal”. It is very disconcerting to be speaking to people who appear rational and then hear them say something like that that demonstrates that they are clearly batshit crazy.
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Good Hunting!
You won two local races, and lost two national ones (in a moderate district in CA and a district in NY that hadn’t elected a Democrat since *before the Civil War*) and this means the Democratic Party has collapsed and the Republicans are resurgent?
You’re like the Black Knight from Monty Python at this point “It’s only a scratch!”
Yes, really RD. Chuckie is cute though, read his opinion. Better yet, take it to a local Democratic Committee meeting, read it aloud, get all lathered up with your fellow Democrats, and react to it with change you can believe in……
This is the same Charles Krauthammer who, in the summer of ‘06, said Bush was “coming back”, the same Krauthammer who in the August of 2008 said there would be a McCain upset. Yeah, sure, we’ll take advice from him!
RD, I am not crowing, I am talking about our party waking up and your party taking a spiral dive. At least when my party was taking a spiral dive I admitted it, admitting it is the first step.
I have no idea if we can parlay some serious state ass-whoppings into a win in 2010, but I have a good feeling. Gut check time. While you and Dan are giggling like school girls over our party’s problems, we are working. Waste your time here all you want.
The same Charles, RD – dont know about the Bush “come back” but there were quite a few of us that could not fathom the american people being had by Pres Hopey Changey. Shit happens. And it is a big steaming pile of it too, in case you hadn’t noticed. Great unemployement numbers today, huh? How’s the hope and change workin for you?
LL, here’s project for you: go look up what unemployment was in December, 1982, during St. Ronnie’s first term. It lead President Mondale to an overwhelming victory in 1984, of course. Only it didn’t.
I put little stock in anyone pronouncing either political party dead. I am old enough to have heard it too many times before to believe it. It is silly. And as screwed up as the Republican Party is right now I would never be foolish enough to predict its permanent demise. The problem for the Republicans is not one that is going to be turned around quickly though.
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We have seen both parties swing too far left or right and take a beating at the polls and then bounce back pretty quickly by moving to the center where the majority of the American people are. But in our modern history we haven’t seen either party go into this self destructive mode of purging all but the most extreme elements and sometimes purging members who are pretty close to the far end of the spectrum but not deemed “pure” enough.
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These things tend to feed on themselves as folks have to keep getting more and more extreme to prove their bona fides. It is likely to get uglier for normal Republicans before it gets better. But it will eventually get better. The hurricane will pass and then the regular people will come out and clean up the mess and rebuild.
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The Republican Party won’t go the way of the Whigs. For one thing it is too hard for a third party to gain ballot access these days. All fifty states have election laws that make it damned hard for all but the two major parties to gain access to the ballot. Which might be the only thing that saves the Republican party. If sane conservatives could easily get a new party on the ballot nationwide they might just do it and leave the crazies behind.
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A new conservative party would, no doubt, be happy to take all the guys like Bob Inglis you care to drive out.
She was for Card check, Cap and Trade, the original stimulus, ANOTHER stimulus, Public option health care. GEEEEZ…Pelosi couldn’t lose if it had been between the R and D in this race. The only difference, is this woman would have given Pelosi and Reid more political cover, just as every Liberal who happens to have an R by their name does. Who needs them…they hurt the cause more than having a D in the seat.
Things have changed….it’s not about getting back to the majority again, it’s about FIXING OUR COUNTRY!! I’m done with cheering on R’s just for number’s sake. We’ll get the seat back. The same thing happened on the local level in PWC with the 51st. The Dem took out a flawed Republican candidate and everyone just patiently waited until this year so Nichols could be replaced with a VERY decent Republican Delegate who can represent the district well and hold that seat for a good, long time.
RD, Sadly, Hopey Changey is doing everything wrong to turn the unemployement situation around. A tax-cutting, free market capitalist he is NOT. Good luck with your history, you need a couple more lessons.
Loudoun Lady is POUNDING the idiot liberals and moderates of this board. I’m almost embarrassed for them just reading this string of comments.
Brian S., you are a moron. People like you give the GOP a bad name. You want to “win” a majority. Doesn’t matter what the legislator believes, or what the legislator does once in power, you just want to win a majority. If some yahoo ran on a ticket to kill all the little puppies in the world, but they were a loyal Republican, you’d endorse them. “Sure, Scuzzyfavor favored bashing in the skulls of little beagles. BUT SHE WAS A REPUBLICAN!!!”
Where’s Loudoun Insider? Sex change, er I mean party change operation causing him to be absent in leading the cheers for Scuzzyfavor?
John Doe, you’re half right. I do want a majority. But I do care what the legislator does once in power. Power without some kind of reason for seeking it is a bad idea.
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Some people disagree and are more willing to accept anyone of their own ideology regardless of party. Yet, for some reason, I’m considered the narrow minded one? Go figure.
I would feel a lot worse about Dede if she hadn’t endorsed the Democrat, which may have been enough to swing the election for “Nancy Pelosi’s hand-picked choice”. I’m very positive on having a big tent and endorsing moderates like Arlen Specter and Wayne Gilchrest, but when they turn around and fuck over the party out of personal spite, then fuck them, too. I don’t see the point in crying over Dede.
I love how all the liberal turds are so generously giving us advice on how to “fix” all our party problems after having been the recipients of that warm, wet golden shower that was election day 2009…
Hey, Cato….they couldn’t very well tell everyone what they REALLY had in mind for us, now could they?? —–”Look, we’re going to have to raise your taxes to save the earth, we’re going to have to raise your taxes in order for you to pay for everybody else’s healthcare, and we’re going to raise your taxes to give the union a little more leg up, so they can come in and turn the state as blue as we can muscle it. We’ll have to lie to you about our plans for you, but it’s for the best. If you knew about it, you’d resist. And ultimately, we know what’s best for you dumb bastards.”—
Uh, last I checked she wasn’t “pushed out”, she removed herself. She also ENDORSED THE DEM!!!! Had she stayed in, the Conservative candidate probably would have won.
A couple things interesting to me in studying the progressive portmortems:
*No matter how incisive and honest the analysis of mistakes in the Deeds campaign, poor or lack of coordination between OFA, DPV, and candidates’ machines, mood of the electorate, the CONCLUSIONS seem to be uniform: “everybody voted for change, and we haven’t delivered” (okay, GOOD! YOU’RE RIGHT!)–but the final conclusion also seems to be “and that’s why we must immediately pass healthcare, cap and trade, etc etc, we have a majority and that’s what it’s for” (uuh, no. People HEARD “change” and thought it meant the kind of change they personally could support, not the predetermined progressive agenda. Again, they completely dismiss the tea parties, many of whose participants seem to be saying “This is NOT the “CHANGE” I thought you meant!). The conclusion for many of the self-proclaimed intellectual elite of the progressive blogosphere seems to be “turn left, HARDER”.
Another thing that strikes me is the definition of the blue base–which of course, the progressives conclude is progressive.
Many are busy defining what a Democrat is (in their own image), and savaging Deeds, who for some of his own party, is NOT.
And many, most distrubingly, do seem to think that the desired result is simply get as many “real” Democrats in office as possible (whatever a “real” Democrat is) and say whatever you need to do so, so WE (progressives, the true base) can implement OUR agenda.
All of that to me seems to play the system more than respect the reason the system was created.
Who did they lose this time? Independents, in droves. The young, in droves. Apparently ObamaForAmerica/OrganizingForAmerica held their massive twitter army data close to their chests, so yes, the kids who might think to vote if they got a twitter to do so from The Man himself might have yes gone and voted.
That to me is horrifying, but it’s legal.
I say let the Dems keep eating each other on the road hard left, and let’s not make the mistake of continuing to do the same to ourselves on the hard right fork.
Because it IS all about coalition building, and what are the Dems doing with the massive and unwieldy coalition of 2008? Watching it fall to pieces, as their “agenda” for everyone else is delayed, modified, denied.
It’s right over there to look at, and pretty big to miss.
Let’s US not.
Meanwhile, with that in mind, how is the 37th going to be handled? Is what money and machinery remaining from the bloobath Tuesday going to be poured into a cutout taking that seat for a blue consolation prize?
Or is the network of cooperation on the red team going to plug up that hole with a good candidate who will be an effective legislator?
The ticket that was just elected here in the Commonwealth is the most conservative ticket, possibly in Virginia history. Many moderates in Virginia realized that they had more points of agreement with conservatives than disagreement. Unfortunately, the same moderate establishment that drove us into oblivion in 2006-2008, now contends that McDonnell is really one of them. For those who have followed Bob’s career in the General Assembly and as Attorney General, must be splitting sides laughing at that contention. McDonnell-Bolling-Cuccinelli won because they advocated Full-Spectrum Conservatism, a term coined by Justin Hart, you know, that guy many of you moderates here despised so much and called for him to be sacked from this site.
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As far as New Jersey, Daggett swallowed up much of the moderate vote there. Christie actually started losing when he ran as a moderate. In the last days of the campaign outside groups like the Faith and Freedom Foundation went into the conservative districts where he was having trouble and started pushing his social conservative bona fides.
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Hoffman lost in NY-23 because he had basically 30 days to campaign. Analyst Brit Hume stated that he was surprised that Hoffman did as well as he did, considering Hoffman’s inexperience as a candidate. With the influence the Tea Party movement displayed in Virginia and New Jersey it is illogical to suggest that one congressional loss has any real bearings on Tuesday, just as a win in that Congressional district would not have portended much in light of a Virginia and New Jersey loss.
Boy, the whackjons are coming out all enboldened and spit, ain’t they?
Steve, if you look at our ticket, they all ran from the center…yes, even Cooch cooled his jets to become a team player.
You owe this election to the very same independents that handed Obama a win in 2008.(look at the returns and see that we garnered HUGE numbers of independents here and in NJ).. After seeing 8 months of a bumbling and lying President, they were more than ready to give us the ammo to fight his hypocrisy.
Steve, read Barb’s paragraphs right above yours. Digest it as if it were gospel, and get back to us. If you cannot make reason of it, you’re destined to repeat the actions and downfall of the Obamaniacs…
We disagree on a number of issues, but dang it, Barb’s right on this point.
Cong. Owens ran as a centrist Democrat in NY-23 and ALREADY is on record as breaking important blue dog dem positions in favor of Pelosi/ObamaCare. add http://www. in front of ” gouverneurtimes.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7623:owens-to-break-campaign-promises&catid=60:st-lawrence-news&Itemid=175 ” trying to get by the moderation.
A main difference between liberals and moderates and conservatives is that liberals have no problem lying about their true agenda in order to get elected. Mods and conservatives mean well, but get sidetracked by the siren calls of not being attacked by the liberal MSM and trying to “get along.” But liberals will say and do anything to get their agenda passed. They are true believers that they know better than we do, and jamming their agenda down our throats is for our own good. Idiots, and people such as Brainless S and Loudoun Insidious believe that sometimes it is better to go along with the liberals, because they aren’t so bad.
Thanks Dean. Scary, isn’t it? lol
John Doe, some Democrats seem to believe “liberal” is a dirtier word to Republicans than “progressive”.
I hate to break it to them, but “progressives” are a whole lot scarier.
“Liberal” is just on the way to becoming another word–it served its purpose, apparently, and now that Republicans have a useful and coherent meaning for it, it is no longer useful in gauzy communication with the Democratic (potential) “base”, hence the rising use of “progressive” which seems to be where the real militant nuts are.
I agree with you that “say anything so we can push our agenda through” is what occurs over there, but don’t forget the MECHANICS of “say anything”.
Once a word is no longer sufficient as a blind, it will be replaced with another pefectly good-sounding word, that has its very own set of meanings, depending on who’s saying it, and what people think they’re hearing when it’s said.
IOW, and in relation to the brief discussion of “green” on the 37th district thread,how many people promoting green are simply marketing it because its popular, and how many USE marketing in order to gain a majority to mandate a new system of economics?
How many consume it because they believe in central planning, and how many consume because the marketing simply resonates?
Remember, the sizzle sells the steak.
I guess what I’m saying is keep an eye on the method, which IS Alinsky and Wellstone, but also keep an eye on those who are using it to sell Malthus and Keynes.
What do we (think we) mean when we use words, and what do the people listening (think they’re) hear(ing)?
Simple answer for a simple question: Yes.
Scozzafava speaks: http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-11-05/the-purged-moderate-speaks/
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And it looks like, as I predicted, most of what was said about her wasn’t backed up when you look at the details. Voted with the Republican leadership in the General Assembly 95% of the time. Cosponsored legislation to defund ACORN. 100% record with the NRA. Viewed abortion and gay marriage as liberty issues the government shouldn’t get involved in. Would have voted no on cap and trade. Has absolutely no plans to leave the Republican party.
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And the whole “smoke-filled room” selection process was wrong too.
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Unbelievable.
Brian, thanks for posting that link. It’s always fascinating to examine the facts after listening to the wild talk and all the crazy distortions. But I doubt it will make much of an impression on the people who you need to look at the facts rather than believe, completely uncritically, the most outrageous lies from “sources” that they trust.
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I expect Smerconish will be smeared as a leftist in 4…3…2…
Yet Dede endorses the Democrat. Not to mention she wasn’t a very good communicator if these really are her positions and ratings. I have no idea if she has a 100% rating from the NRA. I suppose Brian could have dug around in her “real” record during the election to check if his moderate was all she in NOW claiming to be, yet he did not.
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What’s the truth? I don’t know. Checking her NRA claim and voting record would be easy enough. Her stmt that she would have been a no vote on cap and trade is a matter of taking her word. I never knew the specifics on the ACORN claim, but I do know she was endorsed by the Daily Kos – which is high praise indeed from leftists.
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http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/10/1/788504/-NY-23:-The-most-liberal-candidate-leads-%28and-its-not-the-Dem%29
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Before you start whining again Brian, why don’t you research her claims. I could give an interview that rainbows and lollipops cure cancer, but that doesn’t mean it is true.
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We will be waiting with baited breath. In the meantime you, Dan and RD can console one another.
Loudoun Lady, I hardly need consolation. The Democrat won the election. For that I simply say thank you. From a purely partisan perspective I can only hope that you and your kindred spirits keep up your efforts. Your volunteer work on behalf of the Democratic Party is most appreciated. If you wish to continue to vilify moderate to conservative Republicans as leftists and drive your party away from most Americans and to a political extreme, far be it from me to discourage you.
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My desire to see more Democrats elected does not prevent me from having empathy for Brian’s position. He seems like a reasonable fellow who makes coherent arguments that he attempts to support with facts. He also seems to have an interest in the practical business of building up a political party as an instrument to effect public policy. It must be difficult for him to watch the damage being done to his party. Especially when so much of it is being done so mindlessly.
I’m coming in very late on this – lots of distractions on the business and aged parents’ health fronts. But it is, as often is the case around here, and interesting thread. TC knows how to get it going. That is one of his many gifts.
The one point that I think bears repeating (Brian and BPM, among others have made it) is that the Virginia election results in 2009 were very much influenced by a statewide Republican ticket running in the center of the spectrum. Chris can describe, with some accuracy, the ticket as “conservative” (in the current pop-pseudo sense of the term)because of the past antics of our candidates and the way they ran in 2005. But they won because to the average voter they put away all those childish things and held themselves out a governance Republicans. I don’t know whether they’ve really changed their spots or not, but they and their campaign advisors at least had the good sense to tell them to run in the middle. Had McDonnell and Bolling run as their 2005 selves, I doubt they would have made it (I know, I know, the Dems are inept so it might have been close). Cuccinelli put away his rather consistent record of thigh-slapping gibberish and kept it very much down the middle. This is how one wins elections. Now they have to deliver on governance. I wish them all well.