So the discussion now in Loudoun County centers on whether or not a proposed $1.41 property tax rate will be enough to fund Loudoun’s bloated government. In that context, imagine my horror when reading in the local Fauquier paper over lunch there yesterday that their property tax rate is currently $0.76.5 and their supervisors are trying to keep it there. If you don’t believe me, here’s the official schedule of Fauquier tax rates.
For those who say that Loudoun’s rapid growth has nothing to do with tax rates, this is my best piece of evidence. Fauquier places a premium on preserving open space, even spending money on PDRs (although that will likely be cut this year). They have a lean and mean local government and school system that is thrifty yet effective. It’s too late for Loudoun, but Fauquier looks more and more attractive.
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Jan 21st by Loudoun Insider
OK everyone, where do we cut first. And don’t just say schools, I am talking specifics!
Furloughs for all county employees.
Too late for our BOS we just have to keep a inventory for the next election to remove most of them and also keep Miller from winning against Rust which I heard he is going to try again. For this current board this will be the next large tax increase. And the BS this is not a tax increase only a rate increase does not hold water. The value of homes has been decreasing as well, which means many people cannot sell for what they paid for it. Losing personal wealth and a large tax increase is hurting the people of Loudoun big time. And look at all the businesses closing by the hour here. And Miller who said he did not want to increase residential did just that with the kid magnet Fairfield development at shellhorn and ashburn village dr and his proffer was a widen road to nowhere and two traffic lights that will hurt traffic even more. I will remind people about this over and over so it becomes one more thing to keep him out of office the next go around.
With that kind of increase in taxes Loudoun will be closed for business for the thrid year in a row, with by far the highest taxes in northern Virginia. And I will say again Raytheon was pure luck and a fluke and happened because of AOL and the governor NOT our board of supervisors. Hell Miller said at his useless budget meeting he never heard about the George Mason Van Metre deal until it was annouced. Apparently Van Metre and George Mason did not trust him and that is in his own neighborhood and district.
There is an “open” position in the Co Atty’s office–close it. That will save us $100,000 right off the bat. In fact, freeze all open positions in all agencies.
If we have THREE county attorneys to beat up on (and lose pretty consistently to) ONE pro se non attorney litigant (MMadison) for YEARS, recently creating a fictitious issue like the county can’t consider MM’s application to build a house because they don’t know how big her lot is? failing the straight face test by asserting historic pre civil war Janney Street in Waterford is a ridiculous 50 feet wide (contrary to the 1932 Byrd Act declaring all roads in the secondary system to have a 30 foot right of way, contrary to the 1953 BoS resolution taking the tiny little street into the State system at 30 feet, and contrary to a court order signed by VDOT –who controls the road –where VDOT agrees the right of way is a maximum of 30 feet) even when there are existing structures on the street that would be therefore IN the right of way– then our attorneys do not have enough to do. We do not need more attorneys in that office.
No more outside counsel. I have heard that Jack Roberts has a cash slush fund with more than 1 million dollars (maybe several million) in it, to hire outside attorneys. We need our attorneys to do the litigation–not private teams of outside attorneys; if our County Attorney thinks his advice is worth defending, his office should do it, not hire sharks to out lawyer, out paper and outspend opponents on indefensible positions and technical gymnastics.
OK everyone, where do we cut first. And don’t just say schools, I am talking specifics!
TruthseekerVA
on January 21st, 2010
When they asked the bank robber why he robbed banks he replied, because that is where the money is. LCPS is where the money is. 1 agency = 70 % of the budget. The remaining 32 agencies = 30% of the budget. You could cut EVERY agency other than schools by 10% and not make a dent in our deficit.
It is schools stupid ! Take schools to 62% while eliminating a handful of programs while freezing all other budgets cutting some if needed and you begin to make some progress. It will take more than one Budget cycle.
It’s simple really – build more data centers, power them with that fancy new wastewater-to-steam plant in Leesburg, and erect more high voltage lines so that we can sell the excess power to Maryland. We could use the tax revenues to lower the property tax rate, or alternatively pay for more special ed teachers for Miller’s autistic children…
Apparently they did the furlough study and it did not come to enough money to make it worthwhile. I find that hard to believe because other counties and states are doing it. And G. Stone, I am not saying schools should be off the table, I am just asking specifically what would you cut from the schools?
It should be noted that Fauquier is home to the much maligned (by Ms. Munsey) PEC, which has done a lot to keep their county safe from over-development and skyrocketing property taxes.
Furlough savings for just the school employees alone were 2.5 million per day last year. Extrapilate that out for the full county (add 30%?) – and you are approaching $15 million for 4 days of furloughs for this budget cycle. It’s a start and it is equitable.
Let me repeat – Fauquier’s property tax rate (in the land of preservation and land use credits) is SEVENTY SIX AND A HALF CENTS!!! Nearly one-half of that in Loudoun County where developer apologists still say that development isn’t resulting in higher taxes and preservation and land use credits cost everyone more.
Lee, Miller doesn’t have tome to look into budget cuts, he’s too busy playing politics with sexual orientation and trying to get the state, which has no money for such things, to buy 4,000 acres in his district for a park. Why have real governance when you can get your name in the paper for such bullshit???
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Truthseeker, I would begin by enacting the 0% increase budget that Hatrick put forth cutting such essential services as assistant athletic directors and middle school deans. Then plan on raising every class size by at least 10% and making some real cuts in administration. And get rid of the county-provided employee share of retirement payments as well. There’s a start.
The rate in Albemarle County is 74.2 cents.
It’s not NOVA, but really low for such an affluent area.
LI – your incompetent Supervisors and Chairman have brought us to 1.50, not anyone else….Obviously York is a nice guy, but can’t manage a budget or figure out how to grow the private sector in Loudoun. I know its difficult with the ecoterrorists devaluing people’s private property (costing tax revenue) and focus on liberal policies that have expanded this County government to unsustainable levels. The people who have been there the longest deserve the most blame – LIs logic that somehow this was all of Snow’s fault is completely ridiculous. Kind of reminds me of when Democrats can;t defend their position they blurt out Bush…get over LI and discourage your group of Supervisors from ever running again….York has run this County into the ground….
LI, they have a fraction of our population, a fraction of our jobs (including local government!). And according to realtor.com the average home price is $770K.
I wouldn’t point out the PEC as a specific tax asset–they don’t pay any, on their political lobbying budget of 6M+ per year.
If you want to sprawl out further, with a longer commute to job centers, go for it in spite of the fragile environment. Just make sure the door closes tight behind you, or others with the same idea will follow you, then things will *gasp* CHANGE.
If you don’t physically commute, remember that telecommuting requires electricity, and we don’t want no stinking powerlines either.
Gold plated schools, large campuses, astro turf, luxury auditoriums and cafeterias, Taj Mahal for an administrative building, the list goes on–the attitude has been fine, you want new homes, then we will make the amenities so expensive, it will bankrupt us all–
No other county has such small high schools on such large campuses with so many luxurious amenities–
And I also think there has been a concerted effort to stop roads from being built– where instead of making a developer build or finish roads, the board (in large part because there have been no growth poison pills slipped into development applications by staff and applicants, with the consent of board members) has taken proffer money instead–and then never used the proffer money on the roads they were proffered for… There is a very contentious case of that out here on Taylor Road, where Toll Brothers built a 60 or so lot subdivision, and the roads were never paved because of opposition from neighbors, but needed to be paved because the rural roads could not handle all the traffic–resulting in large pot holes, etc.
Our county has been poorly managed. Fighting roads, to undermine subdivisions that are allowed, tacitly agreeing to outrageous school construction and other school costs… poor choices for litigation, a mindset of cronyism instead of professionalism, lots of problems…
And G. Stone, I am not saying schools should be off the table, I am just asking specifically what would you cut from the schools?
TruthSeekerVA
That would be the job of the elected school board. I don’t care how they spend it. Their budget is DISPROPORTIONATE to the total! Take it from the 70% reduce it to the norm of about 60-62 % You then spend the money how ever the hell you want. Their portion of the total can not stay at its current level. Large scale reform, realignment and reallocation is needed or the system will eventually eat the entire budget. Had they started this process in earnest 2 budget cycles ago when they were warned on the impending downturn, the shock would be manageable. However, they did not. It is the school boards jobs to Design and Build the system around the new number. A number 50 to 70 million less than they are accustomed to having.
Shoot for 60 percent.
“they have a fraction of our population”
…er…okay. And that is because they didn’t keep building houses for them to move into. In other words, they looked after the welfare of the residents they had, instead of trying to grow a tax base with any new houses stealing from the pot.(contrary to you beliefs, every new house in a county TAKES money out of the coffer to put with the money that it pays in)
“a fraction of our jobs”
This translates into less commercial/business tax than we have here to offset residential rates.That missing element may actually be driving Fauquier’s residential portions up…not down.
“And according to realtor.com the average home price is $770K”
Again, their residential taxes should be higher because there aren’t any big contributors to the residential rate. We have houses that are appraised at $1MIL and above. Those houses actually pay their portion of the residential tax, and actually offset the cost of any children they have in the schools.
Without those “megatax” paying households, Fauquier’s average rate should be much higher.
Dean, the fundamental argument I have with you about growth is this: we have the tools to make growth pay for itself, but we failed to use them, instead we cut deals, did a poor job planning, did not get enforceable proffers, overspent on amenities like schools, etc., allowed too many homes in rezonings without getting school sites, etc. and we cut too many crony type deals–so much of what happens in Loudoun depends on who you know…
Plenty of jurisdictions have built upon a strong residential tax base, and good planning to attract commercial and other uses for tax diversity, to keep tax rates and taxes low. Residential taxes are the bread and butter of any jurisdiction in Virginia, and ours is ridiculously high because of one reason, poor management, many poor political decisions.
I would venture to say that Fauquier’s tax base is more residential than ours–but they have managed their budget better, managed their schools better, managed their growth better (Warrenton is very nice, much nicer — dont’ mean to offend — than Leesburg, with a vibrant down town, many choices of restaurants, not just fast food but destination type restaurants, and a variety of business.)
Sally, what are the tools to make growth pay for itself?
“Residential taxes are the bread and butter of any jurisdiction in Virginia”
Not anywhere near true. COCS ratios explain it better.
Every “rural” property sends in a dollar. They, in turn, get .30 back in services.(assuming they send children to school, have a well, septic field and pay for their own trash pickup)
Every commercial entity pays in a dollar. It recieves .60 in services (fire and rescue, police and utilities. Hote that commercial businesses do not sent the first child to school)
Every RESIDENTIAL entity pays in a dollar. The County then has to reach in and pull as much as .30 out of the till to put with that dollar to pay for the service that the residential will use. (Fire and police,schools for upwards of 4 children-per Loudoun stats- water and sewer infrastructures and construction, etc.)
The rest of your points are well-taken. The last Board of Republicans did not negotiate proffers as fully as they should have. They were beholden to the developers who put up all of their election funds. To quote one of their election funding moments — “Bruce Tulloch isn’t ashamed to take your money this year.”
There are more such examples.
This current bunch has not done better. They promised to, but they lied.
They are too intent on robbing us blind to fund other special interest.
We, as a party — HAD BETTER recruit and push people like Scott Brown. Unbendable. Resolute and fully on touch with the people they represent.
I have heard that at a $1.41, the County side of the budget will be cut by $13 million. At $1.41 the school side of the budget gets cut by zero, in fact goes up by 4.4%. So G. Stone is dead on. If you want to cut taxes this year, it will need to come from the school budget but you better get your ear plugs on because there will alot of screaming from Hatrick and his cheerleaders, also known as the School Board.
Dean,
I know you are fond of those figures, because you spin them out all the time. But one size does not fit all, and those figures do not really apply to Loudoun.
One thing to remember is if you have for example a municipal water supply, the more users you have lowers the overall cost to all users– so in our county, where we have such a divide and so many segregated areas, towns fighting with the County, rural areas at conflict with more suburban/urban, the issues are not as clear… and the figures you cite Dean, are not the Bible. In Fairfax County, for example, they are not at odds with Fairfax City or Falls Church. like we are here in Loudoun with Leesburg and Pville or the other towns…this drives up our costs…
We spend way too much on residential uses in Loudoun that is for sure. I agree with you there.
Tools: zoning, planning, proffers, re-zonings, special exception applications requiring the applicant to mitigate impacts, economic development, fair tax structures, no special deals (like special uses that should require public hearings slipped through with administrative approvals via the site plan approval process) — lots of tools, that need to be fairly applied.
We need to invest in our future with infrastructure, and we have failed to make the necessary investments at the appropriate times and worse, we have allowed trojan horse type poison pills to undermine the building of roads (the no growth crowd/staff) in land use applications, and then allow the lack of roads and the cost to build them after the fact to argue against the growth that could pay for building these roads.
And we have wasted so much time on senseless litigation, MMadison is a good case in point, but there are many others– when we could have done things professionally, and made an honest attempt to follow the law, and built our reputation as fair and respectful in the process.
Cronyism is Loudoun is famous–this is wrong, and expensive to everyone else who has to play by the rules (or worse, made up rules.)
The budget is a tool–we need to live within our means. In your personal life, you may wait to get married until you finish college, and have a job, and you may wait to have children until you have bought a home, and have a measure of financial security from wise investments in yourself, your business and your savings– in my mind it is the same mistake to build tons of new homes with no plan on how we are going to provide roads or schools, and to give the School Board as much money as we have given them–with no proper oversight on their spending, letting them year after year run out budget out of control, to let them, like spoiled children dominate our wallets, when we cannot afford what they want…
These are just a few of my thoughts…
“instead of trying to grow a tax base with any new houses stealing from the pot…”
*
Monkster: Our taxes have grown because of the mismanagement of growth. I suppose you believe what was said during the last BOS campaign that each new house costs the county $8,000 a year ($13,000 in per-pupil spending – $5,000 in property taxes). Residential growth can pay for itself, if politicians resist the temptation to spend all the tax dollars on operations and apply a lot more to capital spending. That’s something the former York boards failed to do and now debt service is killing us.
Fedup…Do I believe it? Damned straight. It is Loudoun County’s damned job to take care of the people who reside here (with basic services like water and sewer, and basic school necessities.), not recruit for more to move here.
Sally, those are professional COCS ratios. They have yet to be misproven. Many have dismissed them, but they’ve never been proven wrong.
Pick up a book and study the growth phenomenom sometime. I designate a better part of my free time to it. Just as democrats have trouble with economics, so do some republicans.
As I’ll reiterate, I agree that the proffers were not negotiated worth a damn with the last majority.
Michael, you’re a moron. Please tell me – just what did your pals on the last board do to control school spending??? Absolutely NOTHING is the answer. This board is far from perfect but they have done at least something to hold back spending a bit. It sure isn’t enough and they need to do more, but it’s more than the last board did. They were happy to keep empire building while housing values were going up up up.
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Barb, of course Fauquier is different, but is it so different that their tax rate should be ONE HALF of ours? I am really growing despondent over the failure of the Catoctin County movement. You bitch and moan about how the west takes and takes from the east, but I guarantee you a Catoctin County would have had a tax rate much more like Fauquier’s than Loudoun’s. growth equals huge increases in taxes – no way around it. We’re screwed.
Oh, the grass is always greener on the other side.
Saw that Purcellville lost today to the Browns, pending a decision on the County’s lawsuit challenging the annexation. Purcellville is getting horrible advice and it is costing us all…. Lazaro needs a better lawyer, someone whose opinions merit respect– a stitch in time saves nine– good advice at the right time is invaluable…
don’t want to hijack a thread but…i will anyway. judge chamblin ruled that he would issue the requested injunction requested by the plaintiff (sam brown) until the county’s filed suit over pugamp phasing is resolved. then he would hear the plaintiff (sam brown) case regarding condemnation. the town (defendant) didn’t lose, the town 9defendant) didn’t win. i always thought good conservatives relied on facts and reason, not emotion in their arguments. and emotion does not equate to passion.
Dean, first of all, do you think we have more expensive estates than Fauquier? I quoted an average, not a median. To produce that grossly high average, it takes MANY houses well over a million, to offset the modest older homes in places like Warrenton and some truly rural villages there.
Please don’t start bleating about the COCS ratio–as you and I have hashed out before, it is a lobbying tool created by land trusts to lobby for growth controls, and only maginally inching toward any unbiased study.
It bears great relation to our own “fiscal impact” figures, which produce those fallacies that only homes assessed above $1M “pay for” themselves.
That figure was reached by first, developing a Capital Needs Assessment by handing each department a wish list to fill in, with no strings attached, i.e. “what do YOU think, in your professional opinion, would be the IDEAL number of _____________ per 500 people? Per 1000? Per 5000?”, and did not do anything with the results but run them against growing population to produce assessments for proffer guidlines, and in most cases not actually setting up any mechanism that the money thus collecte dactually be APPLIED to the thing that was made up to collect it. (There’s one of your problems with proffers Sally–if we collect for theoretical handball courts per capita, that doesn’t mean there’s necessarily a mechanism to apply it to that. Usually only big tickets like road improvements, school sites, stoplight, etc are specifically delineated, and if the triggers are bad–and many were pre-03–you still get trouble)
Ergo, COCS will produce the likes of our rural economy, where an untaxed value-add product is held as a net positive against the fake numbers “required” by houses for which some money is collected, but the thing never built.
The 03 BoS removed some of the more egregious fake numbers, like dog parks per 1000, but in using COCS against inflated capital “Needs”, you’re comparing unicorn fruit to ogre berries.
Another thing to look at in Fauquier, with its vast amounts of off-limits land: it will face, as western Loudoun is, an aging population that will have its own unique and costly needs, and also, as western Loudoun is in some cases, a transient population of wealthy.
A community doesn’t survive too well on that as a majority base.
In addition Dean, as also pointed out before, if the house that isn’t paying taxes because it is “open space” (that often can’t be subdivided anyway, so what is it voluntarily bravely “protecting” us from?) or because it is producing a value-add untaxed product is also in the attendance zone of a school that singlehandedly raises our “average” (really a median) cost per school seat by thousands of dollars, COCS blows right out the window for good.
I can show you some specifics in Dulles where the taxes in don’t begin to cover the services out on one small school alone.
In a house that also gets a county salary.
tom p– if they are so smart, why did Pville move ahead against the Brown’s with the controversy outstanding with the County? The Court STOPPED them. They LOST the motion that was argued in Court yesterday, maybe not the whole case (yet.) It was ridiculous (some lawyers might have stronger words) of them to move ahead with a quick take (pretty extreme remedy) against the Brown’s when the County disputes their ability to even annex the land. They are just dumb and wasting their hard earned tax dollars paying for horrible advice. Of course, what does she care? She gets paid…
Sally, I have a question about the Crooked Run property.
For years there was talk about townhouse zoning on a portion of the land, and I don’t know if that zoning still exists, has been vacated, is on the section under discussion for condemnation or what.
I can understand keeping higher zoning for higher value, VERY important for a lot of people in loan-to-value ratio in a high risk business like farming (and one of the big concerns for a lot of people who opposed the sequential downzonings of rural property here–having the higher use doesn’t mean you intend to use it other than as collateral, in some cases), so I’m not interested in the reopening of the whole argument made years ago that the zoning SHOULD have been vacated if the land was to stay a farm, but I am curious if the zoning still exists in any form, and if so, is it on any portion of the land sought by the town to be condemned?
tom p– her advice to quick take the Brown’s property at this time is akin to her advice that the Town could condemn Fields Farm. (A first year law student would get an F for such an out of touch with the law answer in my opinion.) Even if Fields Farm had been part of the Town at the time, the Town can’t condemn public property–it is already being used for a public purpose. If she actually told the Town they could do that, it is one of the more stupid things I have ever heard. You have to legally annex land into the Town before you can condemn it, and you cannot condemn public property. But who cares, it is just the Town’s money to waste, her bill to blow air into….? maybe another child needs tuition?
I have seen her first hand in Hamilton, with a disabled family with a failed septic tank. The Town Council wanted to lend them money for the connection fee, and she was supposed to prepare the loan documents. She said she prepared them, and that they were emailed to the Town, and that the Town gave the couple the documents, but there was never any record of the documents she claimed she prepared. Then argument ensued. Did she or didn’t she. Finally she prepares another loan package, but wants millions of dollars of insurance from this poor family, then that was dropped, and she wanted this disabled couple to indemnify the Town, even though it is doubtful under the State Code that this is legal for Towns to do… Months and years later, the family is still waiting–failed septic for 5 years…Finally she “checked” with VRA who has lent the Town money since 1998, and they told her it was illegal for the Town to lend the money. OOPS. So now, the County is going to bail her out, and amend its sewer service agreement area, take the family in, and the County will take care of them. I have had a lot of problems with the County, but they are SO much more professional than this attorney.
I hope Hamilton did not pay her for all the “work” she did on this for so long, preparing loan documents that no one could find, preparing them again, arguing about the loan docs–I would not be surprised if the Town paid her more for her bill than the amount they were arguing about to lend… She claimed that as a matter of law, under their agreement with VRA the Town could not loan the money–after she had been saying for almost 5 years that the Town COULD loan the money, but the couple had never signed a phantom loan agreement…that the Town could not find…and she could not find in her files…
But that’s the way it goes with people who do not have the hearts of servants and who have no trouble sleeping at night, no matter what they do to people or how much they take advantage…they make everyone else pay, no skin off their backs, just dollars in their bank accounts…
Barbara, they have been fighting for years. I am sure the zoning is on a map somewhere on line, but I think the Town down zoned the Brown property to an agricultural use–it used to be zoned for townhouses, I think. The Browns wanted to put a conservation easement on their farm, since it is a centennial farm, been in the family more than 100 years– and I think this is right, the Town tried to stop them from doing it, by down zoning them, and taking away any financial reason to ease the property, but the Browns’ did it any way. If this is really what happened, if the Town did a spot down zoning, only for the purpose of stopping them from easing their land, then that is despicable in my opinion. The Town did not want the land eased because once it is eased, it is more difficult to condemn–you cannot condemn land in Ag districts either…
Sally, just as there are multiple owners to the property, it was my understanding that there is more than one kind of zoning on it.
It would make sense if the higher density were on the portion within the limits, and also make sense, if that’s the portion sought for condemnation, that would be most violently opposed as it is of the highest value.
I asked about it because you know a lot about it.
I’ll see if I can look it up.
Barb,
The portion sought in the quick take is OUTSIDE the Town, that is what makes this so ridiculous. They tried to quickly annex it and then do the quick take– but they have an annexation agreement with the county, tied to their Pugamp, and the county disputes what they are doing… just DUMB bullies is my opinion– we go forward even though we are on thin ice or no ice, and spend a lot of money trying to then get out of the trouble we are needlessly causing…
Why don’t they condemn the White House, that would make a nice town hall? Its outside the town limits, and it is already public property, but heck, Purcellville wants it… that is their logic, and it is wasting ALL of our time and money.
If any business was sued as often as Pville, Hamilton, or Round Hill, the CEO would question the advice they were getting. Hamilton’s insurer apparently threatened to withdraw its agreement to insure, Hamilton has been sued so many times in recent years…
Round Hill just lost a big suit that had to have cost them a bundle…
There is something wrong when all you see is litigation. Most businesses hire lawyers so they are NOT sued, to avoid the costs of litigation, to do things correctly so they don’t get tagged… these Towns seem not to care about what the law is… or how expensive all these suits are, or their reputations for fairness and professionalism, they are all getting very poor advice…in my opinion, and causing our county and its citizens tremendous harm in the process…
Actually the property that the Town move to acquire was annexed into Town in August 2009. BTW, here is map of the Town’s preferred alignment:
http://southerncollectorroad.com/scr/docs/PreferredAlignment_NewTownBoundaries_LQ.jpg
Sally, let me go on record that I support the Browns, mostly because of everything you’ve laid out.
Barbara….you continue to assail the COCS, but offer nothing more than your worthless opinion. Which is sadly devoid of any fact.
You “feel” that the country “estates” get a pass on taxes. Those acres that are removed from buildout and placed safely into “open space” will never deliver 4 children per household, which in turn requires land for a school, transportation and teachers and even grade deans. Your argument is way off base, and signals your revisionary tendencies, yet again.
With regard to the Catoctin County movement, it lost steam when Burton and Clem came together with an alternative that seemed to cool the flames.
Shamefully, in the end, it was Clem who took a 180 and failed to support his own plan, ushering in Tulloch/Staton Plan that foisted the expense of the development out here on the whole county. Catoctin County movement was hoodwinked by Jim Clem in the last days of the decision. It truly lost the election for him in 2007 with the masses of folks in Leesburg District.
If your kind wants Republicans back in office, you’d better severe all ties with big box developers and their donations. Otherwise, the electorate of Loudoun spoke loud and clear in 2007 elections. Are you alot more like the deaf and blind democrats of today than you let on? Or can you recognise a message from the voters in an election?
Dean, I am glad we can agree on some things, but since the rural down zoning in December 2006, mostly people/corporationss who subdivided their land are not building houses, but losing their property to foreclosure, and they are paying a lot more taxes on the subdivided lots if they are hanging on to them than they would have paid for un-subdivided land… be a long time before there is any demand for raw lots/new homes in western Loudoun…. can hardly sell homes built before the bust at a steep discount, where folks are losing money… Quit already with blaming the rural down zoning for adding to our costs…
We do have problems now, and no need to rehash old arguments that do not solve anything. We need to make some big changes NOW in how we do things…demand more or our staff and professionals, make wise decisions with the tax money we have…
Mr. Unity and “your kind”.
You are a great ambassador, dean.
As for my “worthless” opinion, your conveniently-held one does nothing to refute that they were developed by land trusts as lobbying tools, and since they rely on AVERAGES do little to present a truly accurate picture of the merits of specific projects in relation to impacts.
We rely on medians DISGUISED as averages here in both taxes and school expenditures, and look where that’s gotten us.
We have a lot of acres in “open space” that isn’t large enough to subdivide, and guess what Einstein? The purpose of an open space deferral is to reward those who CAN subdivide but refrain from doing so.
Based, again, partially on Capital “Needs” that are largely a wish list and not total annotated and reserved reality.
As I said, I can provide specific examples from my district, with one in particular where a county employee has many multiples the land I do, pays less in taxes, and consumes more per capita in services.
Catoctin County’s feasibility study pre-supposed that all county property (and staff to run it–how I don’t know) within the borders would be deeded outright to the new county, even though many children were(are) served in Leesburg area schools, which were not included.
A large payment was to be made to the new county based on the fact that it had payed “more” for those properties that they expected to be given (even though, like yourself, many residents hadn’t been here longer than some of the people they expected severance pay from).
In addition, a large tax increase was projected as a “start up cost”.
As I’ve said Dean, if it were economically viable, it owuld exist.
It doesn’t.
And that’s why the movement turned into the VLF PAC to run the 07 election, which was truly “bipartisan” in that titular Rs and Ds whose only real litmus issue is growth (planned or unplanned) jumped on the bandwagon for their own benefit. Like you, the world’s best “unity” Republican.
Dean, you should do a little learning from more sources than you already agree with.
There are volumes of backlog of how we got here, and a great deal of it happened before most people (including you and me BOTH) moved in.
Bob,
Yes, annexed amid controversy about whether it could be done, about the PUGAMP, and challenged.
I think with better advice this could have been handled in a civil and correct way, but the Town has made a lot of mistakes (which I mostly blame on your very poor advice) and you are paying for it through the nose…
Ms. Gilmore used to be no growth, and when the PUGAMP was developed and amended, and when the annexation agreement was drafted, she was in that camp, make it hard, poison pills, etc. STOP everything. Now the mood of the Town has changed, you have water, you want to diversify your tax base, you want to build the SCR– you want to grow, for economies of scale for your municipal water and sewer, grow your tax base…but your attorney already @#$@ that up, because she was in the other camp a few years ago…
Very short sighted, sloppy, inept, and not someone I would want working for me…or trust.
Bob,
We have seen how the cheerleaders of Obama have emboldened President Obama (liberal press and others) to be tone deaf, to marginalize those who speak up, to disregard the rights of people, questions about constitutionality of say the Nebraska deal, etc.
My advice to you is to disregard your cheerleaders, and listen hard to everyone, because the concerns being raised are real, and people do care.
I think the smartest thing you could do would be to first get a new Town Attorney, someone who has actually worked in private practice (not just representing local towns) and someone who has more respect in the legal community, so that you can reasonably work out your Town’s problems. Litigation should be a last resort. Purcellville takes a strong arm position too often ignoring real arguments, real rights, and that is why the Town causes so much litigation. We are all sick of it, and I for one do not want to pay for your Town’s “issues” and dysfunction. You are a nice guy, but you need better, more professional, more thoughtful and researched, disciplined advice, not what you are getting.
You may think you are not paying a high hourly, but that is like the woman who goes to the Outlets and buys things on sale, that she does not need, and thinks somehow she is saving money. You need to pay for good advice, and in the long run, it will save you a boatload of money.
Fauquier spends about $1,500 less per student than Loudoun. With 60k students, that’s $90 million. Our tax rate would be a lot lower with that much lopped off of the school budget.
Seeing Barbara and Dean go at it here completely reminds me of the SNL Point Counterpoint bit between Jane Curtain and Dan Akroyd.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/2306/saturday-night-live-point-counterpoint-lee-marvin-and-michelle-triola
LOL Joseph!
Hilarious!!!
I know that in Fairfax county over 70% of the households have no children in public schools. Can someone tell me if that is comparable to Loudoun? What percentage of households have no children in public schools?
I live in one of those new developments in western Loudoun, built in 2005-2006. We have about 35 houses. Most of my neighbors do not have young children. Of those who do, only a few use public schools. The others home school or send their kids to private schools. I’d be shocked if even 20% of my neighborhood had children in public schools. However, we are paying very hefty taxes, between $8,500 and $10,000. We use next to no county services since we are on wells and have propane gas. The thought of our taxes being raised is outrageous. It would have been MUCH cheaper for us to have remained in Fairfax where the tax rate is considerably lower.
Wow – just looked at my assessment. Somehow my house value went up almost ten percent and I will be paying another $1500 in taxes this year if $1.41 is the tax rate. And like you, LL, I have no kids in the school system. Like I said, maybe it’s time to move to Fauquier. This is ridiculous.
Look at your assessments that come out today, my home price has dropped almost 450,000 since 2006 when it was at it highest. and took over a hundred thousand dollar hit from last year in the new 2010 assessment that just came out. Lost almost a third of it’s value since 2006. Unless the economy stabilizes and turns up it will only get worse. And this county is closed for business until the BOS can live within their means. Democrats in office and this year will be the third major tax increase since we elected this democratic BOS a couple of years ago. I just wish we had people in this county and BOS and planning commission that understood that kinds developments that bring in class A business. Not data and flex and industrial built on the wrong places in this county ruining the surrounding property for higher end uses like has happened to the shellhorn side of our metro. Data and flex and industrial belong on rt 606. They don’t bring in near the tax dollars that a high end beautifully designed mix use project does. Tysons is rebuilding itself and not just it’s metros with high end mix use and tearing down the junk we are building as brand new.
Anyway I have lost almost a third of my value on my home since 2006 and every year I have lost real value this democratic BOS has raised my taxes substantially.
Give him time; It isn’t much of a step from “developer whore” to “ignorant slut”. I’m sure we’ll get there–rotfl!
I don’t know what percentage here has no children in school, but would venture it is significantly lower than 70%.
Lucky you, Lee. They claim the value of my home went up more $150,000 since last year, only about a 30 percent increase…
Guess I will have to appeal again–I don’t get it, how could they possibly think my home increased that much?
LL – Concerning the % of households with kids in LCPS, I’m not sure, but I do know Loudoun has about 106,000 housing units and LCPS enrollment is 60,000. Since many households have more than 1 kid, I would guess the number of households with kids in public schools is between 30,000 and 40,000 households, or around 70%.
I meant 70% of households WITHOUT kids in public schools
FedUP,
Percentage of households without children would be in line with Fairfax. Let’s not forget, some of the 30% of households with children home school or do private school. Last time I look at those stats, it was close to 15% of children in private schools or homeschooling.
My assessment went down $30,000 which means I will pay more this year since the tax rate is increasing by so much. My house is now worth half of what the original owner/investor paid for it in 2005. But that’s ok since we will now pay MORE in taxes than what he paid. Thanks BOS!
Just figured it out. I will pay an additional $800 in property taxes this year. If I lived in Fairfax, in a house with exactly the same value, I would pay $2, 435 LESS!!!! And FCPS spends more per pupil than Loudoun by nearly $2,000! Our taxes in Loudoun are outrageous! Has the BOS agreed to this 1.41 rate, or is there time to change their minds?
How about we start budget cuts with grounding Hatrick?! How much is it costing us for him to travel 48 weeks a year? That’s how many weekends that Post reported him to be on an ”education” trip! We pay for every one of those trips. Obviously those trips were NOT about how to save taxpayers money. So much for being a PUBLIC SERVANT! These people are like Congress, totally clueless about how the people feel about their actions, their wasting of OUR money. Heck, they think it’s all THEIR money.
Uh…Sally, I’m not blaming the rural down zoning for adding to our costs…
Keeping the land in 40 and 20 acre tracts is probably what’s saving our collective asses right now.
Yeah, I cry myself to sleep at night thinking about those who bought and subdivided the land as quick as they could to try to “flip it” at the end of the cycle curve. Like the genius said “First come the innovators, then come the imitations, then come the idiots”. Last ones in got burned the worst.
For every 20 acre plot that stays a 20 acre plot, and assuming a maximum build out of 4 homes per acre , with 3 kids each, in an unregulated acreage zoning scenario…, We’ve been spared 240 kids, the school land aquisition, the building bonds, transportation funds and infrastructure to facilitate all those house needs. Sure, the econimy is tanked right now, but there are plenty who are looking forward to when the market returns. And it will return.
Big question is….5 years or 15 years?
“Catoctin County’s feasibility study pre-supposed that all county property (and staff to run it–how I don’t know) within the borders would be deeded outright to the new county”
Having read the resulting study, I can confidently say you just typed a convienant lie.
“Like you, the world’s best “unity” Republican.”
Rinse, Lather. Repeat.
Maybe, someday…if you repeat it enough it’ll actually be true.
Dean, I read the study too. Yes, all schools, parks etc within the suggested borders were to be deeded to the new entity, plus the new entity was to be repaid for supposedly paying more for them.
Where did that county go? Nowhere, because it wasn’t feasible. It became an electoral drive instead, with a lot of convenient lies to win with. Where ARE those indictments? rofl
Guys, before you assume that 70% of households here do NOT have children, you may wish to pull the most recent triennial school census, which polls ALL households, whether they have children, whether they are in public school or not, because the school census helps determine the state funding formula.
I know its popular to think we’ve become Fairfax, but that doesn’t automatically mean the stats transfer.
Lovettsville lady, did you ever respond to my query on the other two threads as to whether Gifted and Talented was becoming grouped with Special Needs?
You referenced that in a remark to Gretchen, and I’ve been curious ever since.
Here is your comment I asked about–you originally posted it in the Marsden-Hunt thread, and I copied it to the Hatrick thread:
“Gretchen, MANY parents in FCPS have wanted charter schools for a LONG time. Parents of GT students, and other special needs children, are desperate for them. That’s why so many GT parents and special needs parents are turning to private schools. Even liberal education writer Jay Mathews is puzzled as to why people like you, democrats, object to children and parents having more choices in public schools.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/class-struggle/2010/01/are_the_suburbs_too_good_for_c.html#more
Why don’t democrats acknowledge that taking kids FROM public schools saves money, rather just costing schools money? Why is it viewed as one way valve that takes money from public schools when child goes to a charter school when it also reduces the school population, thus saving money? FCPS pays over $13,000 per pupil, why not have the money follow the child, and reduce those crowded classrooms?
Lovettsville Lady
on January 15th, 2010″
I have never heard GT reffed as Special Needs before, and while I realize that extremes have needs other than the norm, I would love to know if Gifted is moving into the Special Needs column. Is it?
In the past GT was a part of special needs populations. That was when GT kids had a special curriculum, when GT centers provided for 4.5% of the population of students who read at least two grade levels ahead of their peers and had IQ’s over 140. Everyone knew that they had special needs that the mainstream teacher could not address and they were in the special needs department of the county, or at least FCPS. In many states GT kids received an IEP, just as any special needs child receives. That was long before it became not PC to educate very smart kids and all kids had to be labeled as equally smart and equally motivated to learn and excel in school.
Yes, GT students have special needs. Yes, they have special educational needs that are outside the mainstream. Do their parents understand that and want their special educational needs to be met? Of course. Does the bureaucracy classify them in that way? No, of course not. If the bureaucracy admitted that GT students had special educational needs that would mean that they had to meet those needs. Better to pretend that those children have no such special needs and will be just fine in a classroom with mainstream education, with a curriculum far below the special needs of of the GT student.
Do you get it now? If you had ever had a GT child, it would be so very obvious to you that their needs were beyond what happens in a mainstream classroom and they did in fact need a special program for them to advance academically. That’s why 3,000 students apply to TJ every year with the hope being one of the 500 chosen, because their needs will not be met in a regular school where their needs aren’t even recognized.
B
Barbara,
Does the triennial school census that you reference show which households with children under 18 use public schools, which use private schools, which home school, and which ones have children who have dropped out of school? Or does it only show households with children under age 18? Either way, it would be interesting. Does it shows that Loudoun’s population is dramatically different than Fairfax regarding the number and percentage of children who use public schools per population?
Would you please tell us where we might find that information? That would be fascinating to see, especially if the demographics are very different. Since Fairfax has much more low income housing, and more immigrants, I would expect more children per household, but I could well be wrong. I would really enjoy seeing how FC lines up in comparison to Loudoun especially since our taxes are so much higher in Loudoun.
Thanks!
Barbara, Looking at Census records, I was off and the percentage of students in FC. First, no census separates out how many students are actually in public schools, just the number of children under 18 and the number under 5. The census does tell us how many are in private schools or home schools. In Fairfax county the percentage of children under 18 is 24.3% and the number under 5 is 6.9%. Since those under 5 do not attend public schools, we can say that the percentage of ALL students in FCPS is not more thanhttp://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/51/51059.html 17.5%. That does not allow for those who have dropped out, those in private schools, or those who are home schooled. So fewer than 17% of families in FC have children of school age who might possibly be in public schools. That’s the max, fewer than one in five families with children in any public school in Fairfax county. The reality is even less since we know that there are children in private schools and home schooled.
In http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/51/51059.html
More below, in the next message
comp
In Loudoun things are a little different. Here the percentage of children under 18 is 30% and under 5 is 9.3%. So the max percentage of school aged children is 20.7%, or one in five families. While that is 3% higher than Fairfax, it’s not a huge difference. Since we know that in Loudoun there are children in private schools and quite a few home schooled, that means fewer than one in 5 families uses the public schools, AT ALL. In my neighborhood, we don’t have that high a percentage. But we do pay LOTS in taxes to support those who do.
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/51/51107.html
Barbara, you may also do a quick and dirty estimation of percentage of kids in school. We know that there are just under 60,000 students in LCPS this year. I found it on the LCPS website. We know that in 2008 there were 289,995 people in Loudoun, per previous census link, so we can assume that has risen to at least 300,000. Do the math, 20% are in public schools. How do you convince the other 80+% to pay these outrageous tax rates?
Oops, I forgot to add this interesting link to Loudoun stats:
http://www.city-data.com/county/Loudoun_County-VA.html
Glad you looked at the school census, and saw that they do break it out.
I am aware that often children with gifts in one area have learning disabilities in others, and know that any massive deviation from the mean in either direction has needs other than the norm.
My mother in law is a retired education counselor, and said gifted was never considered a special need in and of itself, but that the combination of differing needs within each child (i.e. gifted abilities in math, learning disability in reading) meant there was often a lot of overlap.
Do they yet have IEPs in VA?
Both my kids were suggested for GT, and neither ended up there. My son flat out said it sucked, and wanted out. My daughter’s articulation was she thought it would be more information, and it was the same information with more busy work.
Both test extremely well, and consequently drive the system nuts–nobody likes to see a perfect SOL, standardized testing well ahead of grade level, and a total disregard for creating a video and editing it to be a pretend TV program (with the bulk of the grade on “teamwork”, and supposedly teaching about weather systems), or participation in the variety of groups and contests that plump that ever so important resume. My daughter went through the TJ process all the way through passing the exam, and then opted not to submit the final application.
Some years back, a delegation of Leesburg area elementary parents came to budget hearings asking for MORE than full funding, because new studies showed that kids could lose IQ points if bleeding-edge program X wasn’t implemented, and thus their chances at Harvard would be ruined if the budget wasn’t bigger.
I am a bad person to pass judgement on the system, because I am the product of Catholic schools all the way through.
We had a system of nuns who dedicated their lives to passing on knowledge and skills, and by God you learned A LOT, and nobody but nobody acted up in class.
We also didn’t do a lot of musical/video “teamwork” farting around, but that was a long time ago.
We had blackboards, chalk and the occasional projector (movies as instruction were VERY few and far between.
Public schools used to be called the great equalizer in a good way, instead of today’s government school common denominator, in that they EDUCATED in core subjects and skills.
Yes, kids probably fell through cracks, but I think there were fewer identified (and government addressed) victim groups, which DO tend to expand the budget in a government structure.
Are you advocating for GT to become something with an IEP in and of itself, other than the necessary addressal of any recognized learning disabilities that also may come with the gift?
And how does that affect the budget, given the portion of the budget that by law must address other special needs?
Looking at what’s happened with AP over the years (and now the rise and competition war with IB), that could have some pretty serious financial repercussions in a place like Loudoun, where EVERYONE is “above average”!
lol, but not really
***and BTW–”Do you get it now? If you had ever had a GT child, it would be so very obvious to you that their needs were beyond what happens in a mainstream classroom”—are you kidding me? I knew there were adjustments to be made in my own mind and heart by participating in a public system, and regard the system as a whole as an ongoing “teachable moment” in raising my own kids. Life isn’t going to be structured for them to my liking by the government no matter what hissys I pitch, and they might as well learn early on what a “system” is and how government tends to address things. Just for fun, try getting over yourself. If you’re going to climb aboard the bitch about the budget bandwagon, turning “gifted” (which many fewer children actually are than are currently so-labelled. The word, like many others, has been debased from overuse by and for the ego-driven) into a “special need” with all the costs that entails in any system remotely connected with government, you aren’t going to be making many valid points in the financials arena.
“Where did that county go? Nowhere, because it wasn’t feasible.”
This is where you are wrong again. It did not come to pass, because Jim Clem and Jim Burton extinguished the fire with their joint plan….which many saw as the middle road. All efforts to write the bill that a Senator would then carry into Richmond were halted. As it fizzled out in the aftermath of Burton-Clem, specific language was being crafted to better define the reasons for the seccession, and to insure that the language did not fit any other county, and would not trigger a whole host of counties who could use the instance to leave their current county(s).
Indictments? Has it been 5 years, already? Oh…that’s right. It hasn’t.
Cotten was well into his next term, and was even the Vice Chair before the bad news was sprung on him.
Even Scott Brown could not balance the current Loudoun County budget without raising taxes. We send money to Richmond we don’t get much back. We have a still growing school population and we are having to build, staff and operate multiple new schools every year each year. Proffers do not pay the costs of residential development. This information is not news. This information has been known since the mid 1990s at least. It was a major issue in every election. Unfortunately the battle over development stopped real zoning reform, the term of the developer board took relief from Richmond off the legislative agenda, and set us up for disaster when the economy tanked and all those assessments went down the tubes. You want Fauquier you could have almost had it if you’d allowed sliding scale zoning like they have, but people who spoke for the Republican party declared that to be a communist plot. If we had put in sliding scale zoning in 1999 and had fewer rezonings to subdivisions we’d be in a far different place now.
Dean, if it makes you feel better to blame it on Clem-Burton, you tell yourself whatever you need to.
Thanks for sharing that version.
The fact remains no legislator would touch it with a ten foot pole BEFORE that ridiculous wishful-think of a study came out.
Creating a new county is an unlikely large undertaking in this state, and would have needed much more compelling justification than a group of people with good resumes saying “we don’t like it that the rest of the county has more votes than we do”.
To which the answer by any politician, no matter how eager all might be for big contributions to continue, will be “…..duh!”
EB, I’ll point out to you that Fauquier is dominated by Republicans, but Republicans who understand that conservation is a conservative (and tax-saving) ideal.
LI, remember there are some conservation Republicans just like there are some Learjet liberals, and some of those are the very group of people who truly have no party other than their own interests.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Roosevelt_safari_elephant.jpg
It doesn’t make me feel one way or another, Babs. It is the particular way that it played out. Burton-Clem was good enough for the majority of that group. It gave them what they wanted. Some of them continued to try it, but the majority of the support dried up with the introduction of the Burton-Clem Plan.
Sad as it is, the Burton-Clem Plan was bastardized into the Tulloch-Staton Plan with Clem’s help…which is largely why he never recovered in the Leesburg race, against Kelly Burk, of all people. Even I called that race for Clem by a couple hundred votes. Evidently, Leesburg didn’t love him to begin with, and when you pour the salt on his poor gamble to drop support of his own plan, the writing was on the wall.
Dean, the only way the last downzoning played into it was as an impetus to pump money into buying a majority that had as their main concern policy areas other than the ones they were elected in.
Trying to draft language that would create yet another state law that ONLY applied to special, unique and different Loudoun wasn’t going to fly either, and you know it.
It was a prolonged tantrum by the uninformed, who were told (as was the same group when they were told “you have the tool of zoning–use it”, ushering in years of watsed time, money, and resources, and a shitload of by right growth with no infrastructure) “you have the mechanism of the ballot box–use it”.
And you did, along with McGimsey. And Miller. And so on.
And WHERE are those indictments?
rotflmaolol
Dean,
I have to say too, that for Jim Clem, he was very popular, relied on his base who knew him well, did not try to raise money, and did not really spend any money on his election — but was smeared for trying to work out a compromise. I am not sure why you continue to exaggerate what happened with the last down zoning. It was a DOWN ZONING. You act like it was an Increase in By Right some how. A lot of people did not sue because of the compromise–the very few that did were arguing some sort of vested rights to site plans or subdivision plats that got held up.
Kelly Burk got big dollars from the likes of Sandy Lerner, who gave beaucoup to other D’s (and Burton) too– and the D’s were very motivated with the Get Out the Vote, one place I think the LCRC fell down in that election…
Hope to do better with our Republican candidates this time around. We would be very lucky to have Jim Clem in office right now. He was a decent and good man, a business man, and a practical person with respect for people.
Sally, I worked with and spoke to Jim Clem often…right up until the reunification of the Republican block….after which Jim changed his damned vote, wouldn’t talk to me, e-mail with me anymore, or look me in the eyes.
Before that moment, we got along just great. I was even about to find a set of 16″ rims for his 53 pickup.
I was right there. I know exactly what happened because I corresponded daily with the players.
Clem went down hard. Over his choice to stick it to the Burton-Clem supporters. And they responded in Leesburg. By giving that power to a relative bimbo….who’s made us all so proud w/ her knowledge on matters. :rolleyes:
Dean, and you personally saw to it he went down, right?
For his personal betrayal of you, just like McGimsey and Miller have supposedly done now that you worked to get them elected?
Do you live in Leesburg too, since you say “us” about Burk?
With some of the stuff you say and threaten regularly, I can see someone not interfacing much with you if they weren’t going to vote how you demand.
Funny how districts outside of the area downzoned need to pay such close attention to the group that threatens to secede if everyone doesn’t bow properly.
And the “Wanted!” posters supporting every Dem BUT Phyllis Randall had nothing to do with it.
Where the hell are those indictments, anyway?
….st-i-i-i-i-i-i-llllllll waiting………………….