Given the significant changes we can expect to see over the next few years as this new law is implemented, it’s important to have an understanding of what exactly the new law will do. I saw a good Reuters article (which is pretty much an oxymoron these days) that generally outlines what the bill does in terms of health care (it doesn’t talk about the student loan takeover or any of the other non-germane things). You can read the article here, and I’ll have the text after the jump.
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Here is what to expect if the bill becomes law:
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WITHIN THE FIRST YEAR OF ENACTMENT
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*Insurance companies will be barred from dropping people from coverage when they get sick. Lifetime coverage limits will be eliminated and annual limits are to be restricted.
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*Insurers will be barred from excluding children for coverage because of pre-existing conditions.
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*Young adults will be able to stay on their parents’ health plans until the age of 26. Many health plans currently drop dependents from coverage when they turn 19 or finish college.
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*Uninsured adults with a pre-existing conditions will be able to obtain health coverage through a new program that will expire once new insurance exchanges begin operating in 2014.
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*A temporary reinsurance program is created to help companies maintain health coverage for early retirees between the ages of 55 and 64. This also expires in 2014.
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*Medicare drug beneficiaries who fall into the “doughnut hole” coverage gap will get a $250 rebate. The bill eventually closes that gap which currently begins after $2,700 is spent on drugs. Coverage starts again after $6,154 is spent.
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*A tax credit becomes available for some small businesses to help provide coverage for workers.
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*A 10 percent tax on indoor tanning services that use ultraviolet lamps goes into effect on July 1.
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WHAT HAPPENS IN 2011
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*Medicare provides 10 percent bonus payments to primary care physicians and general surgeons.
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*Medicare beneficiaries will be able to get a free annual wellness visit and personalized prevention plan service. New health plans will be required to cover preventive services with little or no cost to patients.
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*A new program under the Medicaid plan for the poor goes into effect in October that allows states to offer home and community based care for the disabled that might otherwise require institutional care.
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*Payments to insurers offering Medicare Advantage services are frozen at 2010 levels. These payments are to be gradually reduced to bring them more in line with traditional Medicare.
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*Employers are required to disclose the value of health benefits on employees’ W-2 tax forms.
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*An annual fee is imposed on pharmaceutical companies according to market share. The fee does not apply to companies with sales of $5 million or less.
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WHAT HAPPENS IN 2012
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*Physician payment reforms are implemented in Medicare to enhance primary care services and encourage doctors to form “accountable care organizations” to improve quality and efficiency of care.
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*An incentive program is established in Medicare for acute care hospitals to improve quality outcomes.
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*The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, which oversees the government programs, begin tracking hospital readmission rates and puts in place financial incentives to reduce preventable readmissions.
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WHAT HAPPENS IN 2013
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*A national pilot program is established for Medicare on payment bundling to encourage doctors, hospitals and other care providers to better coordinate patient care.
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*The threshold for claiming medical expenses on itemized tax returns is raised to 10 percent from 7.5 percent of income. The threshold remains at 7.5 percent for the elderly through 2016.
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*The Medicare payroll tax is raised to 2.35 percent from 1.45 percent for individuals earning more than $200,000 and married couples with incomes over $250,000. The tax is imposed on some investment income for that income group.
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*A 2.9 percent excise tax in imposed on the sale of medical devices. Anything generally purchased at the retail level by the public is excluded from the tax.
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WHAT HAPPENS IN 2014
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*State health insurance exchanges for small businesses and individuals open.
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*Most people will be required to obtain health insurance coverage or pay a fine if they don’t. Healthcare tax credits become available to help people with incomes up to 400 percent of poverty purchase coverage on the exchange.
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*Health plans no longer can exclude people from coverage due to pre-existing conditions.
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*Employers with 50 or more workers who do not offer coverage face a fine of $2,000 for each employee if any worker receives subsidized insurance on the exchange. The first 30 employees aren’t counted for the fine.
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*Health insurance companies begin paying a fee based on their market share.
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WHAT HAPPENS IN 2015
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*Medicare creates a physician payment program aimed at rewarding quality of care rather than volume of services.
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WHAT HAPPENS IN 2018
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*An excise tax on high cost employer-provided plans is imposed. The first $27,500 of a family plan and $10,200 for individual coverage is exempt from the tax. Higher levels are set for plans covering retirees and people in high risk professions.
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Mar 22nd by Brian S
[...] What Health Care does, broken down year by year Share and Enjoy: [...]
This bill makes our system closest to the Swiss and Japanese ones. A heavily regulated private market with subsidies and a single payer system for the very poor, working poor, and retired.
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If you think the banking capital of the world (Switzerland) and the second wealthiest country in the world (Japan) are Socialist, you don’t know what the word means.
They’re democratic socialist.
RichmondDem: You’re right, of course. Not only is this plan not socialist (too bad everybody who has socialized medicine, hellow TriCare and Medicare recipients, likes it), it’s not even particularly progressive.
But nobody here is going to care about that. The talking point is that it’s socialism, damnit! Get with the program!
Not even close to the Japanese one. They have a mixture of universal healthcare and private insurance. If your employer doesn’t provide it, the state will foot the bill for most of the cost. They have cost controls on the physcian/hospital side (we don’t). Doctor make about a 1/3 the salary than U.S. doctor. They get subsized medical schooling, so they don’t have huge loans to pay off. Their annual malpractice preminums are equivalent to monthly preminums in the US. They have less admin costs than the US because of the way insurance is setup. They also don’t have fancy offices or hopsitals. Function over aesthetics.
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In addition, pricing is transparent. A double bypass is X amt of dollars, a chest x-ray is x amount, etc. They also have a different mandate structure. If you fail to buy insurance, you don’t get fined. If you get sick and cannot pay your bill, you much then make up for that year’s premiums (which is actually a good deal if you don’t need more than just regular check-ups).
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However they are now running into problems. Aging population and not enough doctors to care for them. Fewer primary care doctors and ER docs because they get paid less than specialists and have to work long hours(kinda like here). When their economy was booming this was a pretty good system. But now that it is stagnant, they are having a hard time managing the costs.
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This bill isn’t like any out there because it is so incomplete and half-assed.
The Washington Post has an interesting interactive link showing what HC reform might mean to you individually. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/what-health-bill-means-for-you/?hpid=topnews
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According to the link I’m eligible to purchase insurance through the “exchange” but because of income will not receive any subsidy to do so.
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Looks like capitalism, smells like capitalism….. *looks under sofa cushion for The Communist Manifesto*
I think the term socialism is not very functional these days. There are degrees of socialism. Comparing Canada’s socialism to Venezula’s socialism is like comparing apples to burritos. They are both food and that is where the comparison ends. When people talk about this bill making us socialist, I think they forget that our government subsizes law enforcement, fire services and public education. Healthcare isn’t that much of a stretch.
Richmond Fem
when you adjust for purchasing power, the state of missisipi has a higher per-capita GDP than Japan and Switzerland.
don’t try to argue socialism with free-marketers
Given that many of the tenets of this bill came out of the Bob Dole/Heritage Foundation plan of the mid 1990’s, I find it fascinating to be told (over, and over, and over) that it’s socialist.
I get that Republicans don’t like the bill. And I get that they have serious (and even principled) objections to is. But being told (over, and over, and over) that I’m a socialist, socialist, socialist makes it hard to have a serious conversation. I KNOW that I’m not a socialist by any standard, and calling me names isn’t going to make me change my mind, make me cower, or make me feel badly about myself or my political position. What it will do is make me dig in my feet and fight harder.
(And Thanks, Brian, for the post breaking down some of the elements of the bill.)
Wow, A democrat digging in their heels on a bad plan – where have I heard that before?
Wow, Loudoun Lady throwing personal insults instead of substantive arguments – where have I heard that before?
“If you think the banking capital of the world (Switzerland) and the second wealthiest country in the world (Japan) are Socialist, you don’t know what the word means.”
RichmondDem
on March 22nd, 2010
Who gives a shit what you call it. Call it peanut butter. The issue is it is an economically unsustainable. Forget the politics , forget the intentions, the math does not add up . Coupled to SS and other entitlements that are now under water, It will collapse.
“When people talk about this bill making us socialist, I think they forget that our government subsizes law enforcement, fire services and public education. Healthcare isn’t that much of a stretch.”
pgreer, that last comment was awfully reasonable. Be careful. You might get booted out of the club.
At the risk of upsetting people in my own party but in the interest of being honest: When Obama ran in 2008, passing health care reform wasn’t even on the top ten reasons for why I was supporting him. I was one of the Democrats who was frustrated this year that we kept focusing on health care reform at the expense of jobs. I was the type of Democrat who would have, gladly, given up large elements of this bill or accepted certain Republican criteria (say, tort reform) if I genuinely believed that Republicans would work to create a bill that would pass.
But they didn’t — they decided to “break” Obama and make healthcare his “Waterloo.” It was a gamble (and one they won in 1994) but one they lost in 2010.
“What it will do is make me dig in my feet and fight harder.”
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Gretchen, so many Republicans are used to Democrats folding that they are having a hard time adjusting to the fact that it didn’t happen this time. The fact that the Democrats kept fighting until they had won may not have fully sunk in for them yet. They didn’t expect to be beaten.
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It is a refreshing change. One I hope we see far more of.
G. Stone:
Probably not. Republican have been hopefully looking forward to the collapse of Social Security for years. Not going to happen. We can afford to provide the same level of basic health care that far less prosperous countries do — hell this bill barely does that — withouth the world ending as well. Anytime anything big one side or the other doesn’t like passes we get these predictions of dire consequences. Pretty much always overinflated. The stuff that really damages the country — like the financial deregulation that let Wall Street hold the whole country hostage to a Depression — that stuff passes quitely with bi-partisan support.
Meh, I don’t belong to any club. I’m not a Repub or Dem. I just think that people’s ideas of what it means to be liberal, progressive, socialist, capitalist are too black and white. They don’t call it a politcal/economic spectrum for nothing.
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I still don’t support this bill. Dems keep talking about how it is a good starting point. When I think of a good starting point, I think of something that has a solid foundation in which to grow. This bill does not incite that image in my mind.
@Gretchen – You were made at Obama for focuing on Healthcare and not on jobs, yet you like this bill even though it could potentially cost alot of people their job or prevent them from getting a job. Is your real name Sybil by any chance?
PGreer — if this bill is a disaster, I will be the first to admit it. I assume, should it bring about more positives than negatives, Republicans will do the same and admit they were wrong?
I get that you genuinely think this bill is a nightmare. (Republican rhetoric makes this clear, even if their actual objections don’t always.) What I think is a shame is that the same good-will isn’t given to someone like me, who doesn’t love the bill, but given the choice between this bill and doing nothing, chose this bill as the better choice.
Steve, gonna be hard for those Tricare and Medicare folks to like it because it just robbed Tricare and Medicare blind. While Medicare would have died a natural death in a mere 7 years without additional funding….it’s DIA RIGHT NOW….making it even funnier that the CBO gave this a “savings” moniker….and even funnier that Congress doubled figures to get the CBO to arrive at that conclusion.
Further , if the government mandates that you (and every household in America)hire a maid immediately, or face stiff fines and imprisonment….how are you with that? There’s really no difference.
“We can afford to provide the same level of basic health care that far less prosperous countries do — hell this bill barely does that — withouth the world ending as well. Anytime anything big one side or the other doesn’t like passes we get these predictions of dire consequences. Pretty much always overinflated.”
Steve, this is an easy thing to say when your two key strategies are 1. Keep kicking the can down the road and 2. keep raising the depth ceiling.
At some point this comes back to bite you.There is a tipping point.
Gretchen what do you hope to get out of this bill? Coverage for a pre-existing condition?
I have excellent coverage now, actually, through my husband’s employment. Oh, and by the way, my taxes are likely to go up because of this bill without my getting anything much personally in return. (Honestly, people, I couldn’t be more entrenched in the private sector!)
So why does it matter so much to me? I want to correct a historical wrong. When I was in my 20’s, my husband and I couldn’t afford health insurance even though we were both working multiple jobs. (Early 90’s recession.) My husband and I lived in great fear that I would get pregnant, or that one of us would fall or have a car accident. Fortunately for us, none of those things happened (The fall, and the subsequent surgeries needed to put my leg back together happened one month after we were covered!) But when I hear people (ie, Republicans) tell me that people in their 20’s don’t get health insurance because they think they are invincible, I wonder if they even begin to know what it was like to be in that position. We knew we weren’t invincible. I don’t think anyone working in the US should have to live through that kind of daily fear.
So that’s why I fought for it. For the people who are in their 20’s now.
Gretchen, you clearly have not been keeping up.
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This is another goosestep in the Marxist march to a totalitarian state. Please set aside your personal anecdotes and empathy.
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After you do that, enjoy the mental image of the depth ceiling.
Gretchen,
Republicans don’t understand why someone would do something that doesn’t directly benefit them. Even issues like abortion, which they rail against in the hope that the monkey in sky lets them in to heaven when they die.
Local, What personal insult? Gretchen is the one digging her heels in and that’s what democrats did on this bill, regardless of what was in it. Of course you like this bill, so it would be an insult to you.
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Do you have a buzzer in your bat cave when I post? Did I catch you making out with Black Out?
Edmund, Yes, personal anecdotes are the bedrock of our republic.
LL, while you’re here… is heal-digging a bedrock of our republic?
Everyone seems to have lost sight of the fact that everyone gets health CARE… the working poor, homeless people, illegal immigrants… they all use the free clinics and emergency rooms as doctors offices for everything, even minor things like a cold. That is what has driven up the cost of health insurance and healthcare for everyone. Please explain to me who will get healthcare under this plan that isn’t already getting free healthcare? And once again, this plan creates more disincentive to be hard-working and successful. We already pay for the healthcare of others who can’t or won’t, we just now have to pay more for it because of the new government bureacracy that will be created to implement this plan.
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If the government wants to start it’s own health insurance company (remember where GEICO got started anyone?) that’s fine. But leave the rest of us alone.
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Explain to me why it is that if I didn’t have insurance I would have to pay $7000 for my son’s hand being pinned back together after an accident, but the insurance company only paid out about 1/2 of that? Seems a bit backward to me. Shouldn’t “usual and customary” charges be applied to both individuals without insurance and insurance companies? That would certainly even things out. People without insurance have to pay more? That’s just stupid and is something that SHOULD be addressed.
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We pay $1,100 a month for health insurance (married couple, mid-40’s good health + college student child) and hardly use it, and it goes up (a lot!) every year… but I would rather pay that than rely upon the government who will eventually put a price tag on me. If government takes over the healthcare industry where is their incentive to provide quality healthcare when Social Security is facing insolvency? It won’t be in the government’s best interest for us to survive long enough to collect SS… think about it. And call it what you want, it will be a dismal failure just like everything else the government runs (social security, medicare, the post office). When government gets involved they don’t raise up the poor and down-trodden they simply bring everyone down to the lowest common denominator. MSNBC has an article online about the CBO saying that part of the costs of this program will be paid through penalites and fines levied against businesses and individuals who will not comply with the mandates. Funding a program with penalites and fines??? What a joke.
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The current system certainly isn’t perfect, but this will be far worse. Open state lines to create more competition and tort reform is a must… “loser pays” on frivolous lawsuits… these should be the first steps. This is a slipperly slope people. If the government is underwriting and controlling healthcare/health insurance just how long do you think it will be before they start telling us what we can and cannot do or eat? I can hardly wait for the government approved gruel, how bout you?
I guess we will see how many 20 somethings will opt out of getting insurance and pay the penalty instead. When I was in my 20s I didn’t really think much about having insurance. I knew I couldn’t afford it and there was no sense worrying about something that was out of my control at the time.
LL I think BlackOut has a secret decoder ring too.
(wants a secret decoder ring!)
pgreer….gets to be a different animal when we start talking jailtime, don’t it? Sometimes, I really don’t know if the dumb astards who still support this travesty really know what was in it. And if they do, and still wanted it, does that make them really stupid…or opportunistic?
Japan is wealthy!? That’s a good one! Their debt-to-GDP ratio (170%) is beaten only by Zimbabwe! Is that what you want for the US?
Monk – I think a lot of people in their 20s will opt out if insurance premiums are not realistically low enough to off set that. I know I would of. The penalty would of been as much as my tax refunds back then so it would be a wash. Look at MA’s mandate. That plan is in trouble because so many people have opted out. That state has some of the most expensive premium averages for our nation.
Monk you go to jail if you don’t pay the penalty. The same is true if you don’t pay your taxes. And even then it is usually not the norm. The IRS would rather add penalties and interest than bother with jail in most cases. If you are in jail you can’t earn a wage for them to take money from.
LL,
i guess reading comprehension can be added to the list of things that are too intellectually elitist for your simple, common sense, way of life….guess that fancy book learnin’ still ain’t for ya.
“gets to be a different animal when we start talking jailtime, don’t it?”
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sigh.
Gidget, you just made several arguments for health reform which is in the new law. Emergency care is the most expensive type of care. I would rather subsidize the poor to get proper insurance and have everything covered instead of paying for it through higher rates on my insurance when they can’t pay the overpriced ER bill. You do pay more for cash than a health plan since there’s an expectation that you might not pay the bill. Group rates are part of most health plans, you don’t get that with cash. Another reason why the “free” care at a hospital is the most expensive kind.
Keep in mind that going to hospital with a broken leg is one thing. They’ll cast it up and give you crutches and you can skip out on the bill. That doesn’t work for cancer treatment, diabetes, really any type of non-accidental treatment. Heart attack, yeah. Heart bypass, you go die at home.
[...] take some insight into what the health care reform proposals will entail. Brian over at Too Conservative has a great post detailing what the new health care legislation will do over time, while The Wall [...]
Yeah, Japan is just like Zimbabwe. I mean was in the store the other day and saw all kinds of Zimbabwean televisions and computers!
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“when you adjust for purchasing power…”
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If my aunt had a Y Chromosone she’d be my uncle.
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“Socialism” In ConservativeLand means “anything the federal government does besides the military”. I’d put the Post Office in there, too, but I can’t even be sure about that anymore.
Or, as Harry Truman put it in 1952:
I have a decoder pin like the one in “A Christmas Story” – but I will not loan it to Local and BO for their super-secret discussions.
What’s fascinating is how the leftists keep moving the goalposts with regard to the term “socialist.” They insist that the term only means outright nationalizing the means of production. This, apparently, from their college classes on the Fabians.
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The truth is that once regulation and control get past a certain point, it’s de facto socialism. Leftists have learned that Americans won’t accept outright government ownership of the means of production, so they achieve the same result through ever more onerous government regulation and control.
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Then they sit back and whine that conservatives are calling them names. All this while they destroy our country with insane health care legislation.
“Be sure to drink your Ovaltine”? A crummy commercial? Son of a bitch.
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NJSM, we’re not talking about the poor. The poor have medicaid. We’re talking about people who have jobs and can afford some level of care, but the cost is too high to make it realistic, especially in this environment. That’s why the focus of the reform efforts should have been focused like a laser beam on lowering the price for insurance to enable those without it to purchase it on their own. No mandates, no penalties, minimal subsidies, and attention to outside costs that drive up the cost of insurance and care.
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That’s not what we’ve got.
“What’s fascinating is how the leftists keep moving the goalposts with regard to the term ’socialist’.”
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“Then they sit back and whine that conservatives are calling them names. All this while they destroy our country with insane health care legislation.”
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Tom, I think you are a bit confused as to who has been “moving the goalposts”. In case you missed it, the Republican Party has changed quite a bit in the last ten or twenty years. The moderates are all gone. It is a smaller party that represents a much narrower portion of the ideological spectrum. This modern Republican Party has made quite a habit of calling anyone who isn’t as far to the right of center as they are either socialists or communists. People who could objectively be called moderate or even moderate conservative are routinely called socialists. Hell, I have heard some Republicans refer to Barry Goldwater as a liberal! So make no mistake about who moved those goalposts.
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I suppose if you are so far to the right that the curvature of the Earth makes it impossible to see the center of the political spectrum that your view of where you and others stand on that spectrum might be understandably distorted. But that doesn’t alter the fact that the abundant and totally inappropriate overuse of the term socialist by right wingers is highly comical.
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I don’t know where you got the idea that people are whining at your misuse of the term. I imagine they have little concern for the verbal antics of those on either the extreme right or the extreme left. They are merely pointing out how silly it is to apply the term to the views of Americans along a broad swath of the political spectrum. And they are laughing at the absurdity of it.
“Hell, I have heard some Republicans refer to Barry Goldwater as a liberal! So make no mistake about who moved those goalposts.”
The only thing more foolish than ” someone ” making the above statement is you using it as the basis for your overall assertion.
“They are merely pointing out how silly it is to apply the term to the views of Americans along a broad swath of the political spectrum.”
The term is used ,correctly I might add, to a very narrow band of political leaders who have captured the levers of control of the Dem party. Your broad swath argument is laughable. A very powerful narrow band ( Obama , Relosi, Frank, bla bla bla ) are in control, they are left of most leftists. Don’t get caught up in the semantics. Your party is now under the control of leftists. Call em what ever makes you feel good. It is what it is, they are what they are. The fact that they share the same party with an occasional disenchanted moderate does not preclude the fact that they are far to the left of the vast majority of Americans. They are at their core leftists and European style socialists who were smart enough to both hide those core beliefs they knew they could not sell to voters while running to center.
G.Stone, What can I say. I believe you have reinforced my point.
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Trust me. The last thing I would ever want to do is discourage you. I think it would be quite helpful to have as many of those who are trying to make the case for the Republican Party go around endlessly screaming about socialism. Throw in some stuff about the president being a Muslim who was born in Kenya too. That will surely make the average voter feel that the Republican Party is the place for them.
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So, you assert that the Democratic Party is nothing but leftists with the “occasional disenchanted moderate” thrown in? And you have the chutzpah to call someone else’s argument laughable? Maybe you missed that there are no moderate Republicans left in Congress. Not even the “occasional disenchanted moderate”. The moderate to moderate conservatives in Congress are all Democrats now. That isn’t Ronald Reagan’s big tent you are occupying. That is a pup tent filled with the far right.
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Please. Tailor your message to what you think is the mainstream middle. Go heavy on the socialism stuff. Please. It can only help.
Tom is correct! The slow creep, conditioning and de-education (or re-education) of the populous over the past 50-60 years (probably longer) have produced the results the leftists desire. No longer can we let them move the goal post, it’s time to call a leftist a leftist – and yes, our current administration is the worst of the worst.
Dan, Do you go from blog to blog and ask people to please frame their argument a certain way and tailor their points? If you can’t argue properly, perhaps it is you that needs to tailor your argument.
Loudoun Lady, no argument from me. Only encouragement. Keep screaming about socialism. And not just among yourselves. That isn’t enough. You need to talk about socialism with lots of regular folks. All the time.
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About those goal posts. You are going to need a lot of leg if you are going to try a field goal. You think you are somewhere between the forty yard lines and you are up in the stands beyond the end zone.
No one is screaming Dan. I talk to people everyday and they are very disturbed at the trend of this government, and once they get engaged they realize the danger. People are smarter that you think – but leftists treat the people like ignorant rubes. You have it nailed!
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Please stop instructing people on who and what to talk about, it’s annoying.
Loudoun Lady, I certainly don’t want to annoy you. Only encourage you. And if you are correct then it seems to me that you have a duty to spread this message about the dangers of creeping socialism far and wide. You could be a modern day Paul Revere.
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Ride like the wind! The socialists are coming! The socialists are coming!
I love the Paul Revere imagery, although, I think an ostrich would be more appropriate to ride than a horse.
Dan
You have comprehension issues wrapped in assumptions dipped in talking points.Your best assertions are made when you have someone distracted in another direction. Please focus on real issues the facts that surround them as opposed the what you heard someone say.
Leftists exist. The fact that they exist does not make all associated with them leftists. Your attempt to assert that your political opposition has painted all with the same brush is both transparent and tedious. I have never and will never assert that the entire Democrat party is comprised of leftists. However, through some very shrewd political maneuvering the leftists in the party have gained control, they are driving the bus. Their efforts to date have very effective. The fact that the Republican Party is or is not comprised of those on what you would call the far right is irrelevant. Whether the Republican party nominates Gingus Khan as the titular head of the party in no way discounts the fact that Obama, Pelosi and the Democrat leadership are as far left as any group who have ever had control of a major American political party while at the same time owning the levers of control of both the white House and the Congress.
“Leftists exist.”
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G. Stone, of course leftists exist. I simply pointed out that it would be impossible to identify someone who might accurately be described as a leftist by listening to leaders in the Republican Party who with such regularity identify so many people as such when they clearly are not. And it has gotten to the point of being laughable. These Republican “leaders” have become parodies of themselves.
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The rank and file have obviously taken their cues from the “leadership”. Note how often our good friend Loudoun Lady defines anyone who disagrees with her as a “leftist”. And she is not unique in that regard. A casual reading of the comments on this blog alone will demonstrate that this is widespread. What this overuse and misuse has done more than anything is render the term meaningless. And make those so egregiously misusing it seem silly. The English language is a rich and wonderful thing. And choosing the correct word to convey one’s precise meaning can make it a powerful tool to make one’s ideas understood. Hyperbole and over the top usage doesn’t make something true when it isn’t.
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You assert that “Obama, Pelosi and the Democrat leadership are as far left as any group who have ever had control of a major American political party”.
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Really? They are such leftists that they managed to produce a major piece of legislation that most greatly displeased the liberal wing of the Democratic Party because it never even included a serious discussion of the solutions that liberals would have liked to bring to the table? A bill that enshrines the private insurance companies place in the system (witness the recent rise in their stock prices)? These are the people you describe as “as far left as any group who have ever had control of a major American political party”? And that makes sense to you? You still think you are applying that term with any degree of accuracy?
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You are welcome to your opinion that the President and the Speaker are “leftists”. And your view that that is a mainstream opinion. I look forward to Republicans talking that way in places like the 11thCD all across America this Fall.
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The reason your feet are dry is because you are standing on the far right bank of the stream. If you were in the middle, as you seem to believe you are, your feet would be wet.
Do you also think that the crazy folks who ran around calling President Bush a “fascist” represented mainstream opinion? Do you not realize that, to average voters, people running around calling this president a Marxist seem just as insane as the ones calling Bush a fascist did?
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To most folks they really are two peas in a pod.
Dan
The fact that some are left of Obama does not make Obama a centrist. it just means there are some to his left.
Stalin had Trotsky ( and others ) assassinated so therefore Trotsky was not a Communists ? No , Even commies can disagree. So can American leftists.
I am afraid this is a bit over your head.
I don’t think the perspective problem is mine. Or that it has anything to do with altitude.
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If, in the face of all evidence to the contrary, you wish to portray a liberal House Speaker and a president who, thus far, has governed pretty much from the center as if they are Joe Stalin and Leon Trotsky you are free to express that opinion. But you run the risk of being placed in the same category with those who said crazy things about the previous occupant of the White House too.
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As I said before, I hope that you will free to talk that way in front of lots of average voters who are not extreme ideologues. I know you find it impossible to accept, but when you talk to them like that you guys come off every bit as nutty as the Code Pink crowd ever did. And that can only help Democrats.
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The perspective problem is left/right not overhead. The Code Pink types can’t tell that they sound just as nutty as you do when you call the president a communist. And you can’t tell that you sound just as nutty as they did when they called Bush a fascist. But most voters who decide elections think you are both just a little bit unhinged.
Stone and LL, Dan obviously did not get the memo last November. A 61% victory for the Gov in Loudoun is not clear. Wait until this November, I suspect the message will be unmistakable. As Brian says, Obama et al have turned the USA into a democratic socialist country. Ala western Europe. I am fairly confident most US Citizens are not pleased with their bait and switch. We can thank our so called watchdog media for failing to do their job during the presidential campaign.
John, you will get no argument from me about the poor level of journalism in this country. I am appalled at how little reporting is actually done in this country. And that hurts all of us.
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These so called reporters would do a segment on the Holocaust and have a Holocaust denier and a sane person on to “debate” and think they had done a proper job of reporting on the “issue” in a “balanced” fashion. It is pathetic.
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This has nothing to do with politics. I have no desire to see the press give a free ride to any president. Even one of my own party. Maybe especially one of my own party. Can you honestly say that the free ride Bush got from the press was good for either the country or your party in the long run?
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I must admit I am a little confused about your comment on the Virginia election though. Where in your pocket constitution does it say that our elected representatives in Congress should ignore the will of the people who voted to put them in office based on a subsequent Virginia Gubernatorial election? And would the subsequent Democratic victories in special elections then trump that?
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No. I’m afraid we will have to wait until November to see how valid all this talk of flipping Congress is. I suspect it is more than a little overblown.
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Good luck with the repeal campaign. Sounds like a winner if you mention socialism often enough.
Dan, You tell us to talk to people, I say I do, you mock me. You encourage no one, but after reading your rants people do feel like staying away from this site. You’re actually a blog traffic killer.
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Are you in BO’s bat cave now? What do you all do in there – eat cracker jacks and giggle? I see the alarm went off again.
Dan’s insight :”The English language is a rich and wonderful thing”
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Please type in another language like Mandarin Chinese so we can just skip your silly posts.
Oh oh:
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http://www.gallup.com/poll/126929/Slim-Margin-Americans-Support-Healthcare-Bill-Passage.aspx
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G, we just nosed into year two of the Obama administration and it looks like your prediction of Obama = Carter is in deep trouble.
“If, in the face of all evidence to the contrary, you wish to portray a liberal House Speaker and a president who, thus far, has governed pretty much from the center as if they are Joe Stalin and Leon Trotsky you are free to express that opinion. But you run the risk of being placed in the same category with those who said crazy things about the previous occupant of the White House too.”
My example in no way compared the two sets of characters. You knew that before you wrote and yet you wrote it anyway, a prime example of your attempt to re-direct. The point that zipped right over your head was in response to your assertion that because Obama got grief from the left he was therefore a centrist. The point was and I will do this slow so you can follow is as follows. Stalin a communist had Trotsky another communists assassinated. Therefore two individuals sharing a common ideology can have substantial conflict. You will notice nowhere in this explanation did I mention the others. I am going to try to work with you and bring you along in these discussion in the hope you begin to get it. This is the new kinder and gentler me. The old me would have come right out and declared your motivations those of a disingenuous hack or a fellow who was trying to play in the marketplace of ideas yet was not that bright.
Eddie, Your friend Dan just told us not to govern on public opinion, consider your poll ignored.
Loudoun Lady talks to a few of her wingnut friends and thus feels that everyone is against health care reform. Cognitive dissonance is a bitch, feel free to keep hunkering down with the teabagger crowd.
I don’t believe you should govern by polls either (except for the ones where everyone goes into the booth on Tuesday), but polls are essential in seeing see how perceptions change over time.
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I would hope you do understand the difference, LL.
edmund,
I believe the lady only believe in governing by RASMUSSEN polls. That’s where you’ve gone off the rails, lad.
LL, I know you looked. Don’t fib. We’ve been friends for too long.
Please cite where I have used polls in this HC discussion? I don’t need to see Rassmussen, Zogby, Gallup or pollster Frank Luntz and his bad hair piece to tell me anything about public opinion.
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Sorry Eddie, didn’t look at your link, I literally ignored it.
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I see the creep NJSM is back. The question is – can he post anything without using foul language or the C word?
Do you mean cognitive?
Heh. This is pretty funny: http://www.politico.com/livepulse/0310/No_Viagra_for_sex_offenders.html
LOL Eddie!
Damn Cato, NJSM must be really mad at Coburn!
“You’re actually a blog traffic killer.”
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Loudoun Lady, I thought you loved me, baby. How can you hurt me so?
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Actually, you attribute too much power to me. I hardly have the ability to damage traffic here. Besides, this thread has an awful lot of comments. It would appear traffic is heavy.
Dan, if you want to see some real intellectual firepower, head over to novatownhall. I’m sure they are handing out pitchforks and torches — and most of the blog traffic has taken the Nutjob exit off of the John Birch Parkway.
G.Stone, please don’t feel any compunction about showing your true self on my account. No need to show a kinder gentler facade. If your normal course is to impugn the motivation of those you disagree with and accuse them of being hacks. Feel free. I won’t be insulted. You are not exactly a font of reason and objectivity. I will consider the source.
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After all, I noted that you were a political extremist who insanely calls the president a Marxist. While what I said is quite true I imagine it may not sit well with you. I know you can’t see yourself as the flip side of the Code Pink wackos. Extreme ideologues such as yourself rarely display much objectivity.
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Please don’t mistake what I am saying as an attack on a conservative political philosophy. It is not. I have good friends who were Goldwater Republicans and who think SSI was a bad idea and who opposed MediCare and who opposed this current health care law. If people like them were to achieve an electoral majority they would take the country in a direction which I would not agree with. But I would have every confidence that the country would be in good hands. Because these men are conservatives. Not right wing nut jobs. They don’t go around calling the president a Marxist. And they know the advancement of their conservative political philosophy is not aided by the large number of nuts running around doing so.
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The point that seems to be going over your head is this. Calling the president a Marxist, when he so clearly is no such thing, doesn’t make you a conservative. It makes you an extreme nut job.
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If the shoe fits….
Edmund, the John Birch Parkway? When the hell did all the crazies who were banished from the American conservative movement decades ago become rehabilitated?
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The Birchers even cosponsored the CPAC convention. A rather startling fact that went completely unreported by the so called journalists of the mainstream media.
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Barry Goldwater and William F Buckley must be spinning in their graves that the lunatics are being aloud to seep back in after all these years. And there doesn’t seem to be anyone of sufficient stature to do anything about it. It is going to get a lot crazier on the American right before sanity is restored.
aloud should read allowed. Apologies to the good nuns who really did teach me to spell properly. I plead too much scotch.
Edmund, I took your advice and checked it out. What is most striking is the total lack of confidence they have in America, in our system of government and in the resilience of our institutions. They lose a couple of elections and a major policy fight and all of a sudden it is the Apocalypse.
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What is striking is not their political views but their total lack of faith in America. For people who wrap themselves in the flag and act like they own it they sure are jellyfish when it comes to truly believing in the greatness of America and its ability to navigate stormy seas.
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This younger generation of conservatives sure are a bunch of pussies. (sorry for using my Vice Presidential vocabulary)
“After all, I noted that you were a political extremist who insanely calls the president a Marxist. While what I said is quite true I imagine it may not sit well with you. I know you can’t see yourself as the flip side of the Code Pink wackos. Extreme ideologues such as yourself rarely display much objectivity.”
After two attempts it appears I will never get through to you on this or any other issue for that matter. Your assertions are gratuitous and therefore worth very little. What am I saying ?, they are worth nothing. You like a few others here would prefer to play the lazy bait and switch as opposed to answer direct questions and substantively defend your positions. Trying to have an honest discussion with you is like trying to herd cats with a buggy whip.
G, honestly.
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Do you expect folks to take you seriously when you belch out that Obama is a Marxist? That’s a nine on the bat shit insane scale. Bulletproof has only gotten to an 8 with his assertion that 9/11 was an event on par with the Civil War.
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Here are two questions to which I would like your direct answer (no lazy bait and switch please). Your answer will determine if you are capable of an honest discussion:
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Is Obama a Marxist? If so, could you provide the evidence?
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I’ll set my buggy whip down and wait for you to climb out of the litter box and answer.
Is Obama a Marxist? If so, could you provide the evidence?
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No he is not. Let me repeat that, he is not. Having spent much of my adult life studying the wide and varied degree of political and economic philosophies to include Socialism and its sub sets Marxism or the other way around ( I am not going to get into the chicken and egg thing here )
Obama is however, an admirer of the European model of Democratic Socialism I would use Denmark as but ONE example of the model he admirers or wants to emulate, IMHO. I have said this a number of times, however for some reason it is ignored, because playing the Marxist card seems to be perceived as having some intellectual value.
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When one looks at several of the European models, some are moving center right due to mostly poor economic performance of western Europe as a whole. All the more reason why i find it amazing that so many of Obamas ilk, American leftists of varying degrees believe this economic model will work in America. Obama is all about Social and Economic Justice. He has admitted to being dedicated to making the federal Government the tool to achieving those goals .
“Do you expect folks to take you seriously when you belch out that Obama is a Marxist? ”
I have never made this assertion. You know it, I know it yet it creates a very nice diversion.
Eddie
Re-read this thread top to bottom. Your issue is with Dan, not me. Actually your issue is with Dan’s ability to comprehend or separate analogy from assertion.
Eddie;
“Your answer will determine if you are capable of an honest discussion:”
Let me thank you in advance for your benevolence in evaluation of my capabilities and honesty. It is my hope you will allow me to continue.
The Google machine doesn’t lie G… but you know what? I will take your answer and not check it.
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I thank you for your answer.
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You have been deemed capable of an honest discussion (at least by me).
“You have been deemed capable of an honest discussion”
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Good thing that. I thought for sure he was going to get the death panel.
Cato, you will be spared a taste of my sickle (wow that sounds dirty) when I am a Death Panelist for two reasons: first, you’re a smart guy with an attitude. Second, you will owe me a dinner in about 10 months.
Listen, we need to talk about that whole death panel thing. I mean, I have some really creative ideas which should exponentially grow efficiencies and feel I could really be of help (for a nominal fee). Christ man, a sickle? Are you serious? Haven’t you ever heard of Zyklon B?
Always stepping on or just over the line…
[...] They’re absolutely right. But for a list of other things that will happen because of passage of this bill, I think Brian S over at Too Conservative has a great list. [...]